A Dialogue With The Devil
An interview with Julián Carrón - “When you are convinced of what you are living, you can even dialogue with the devil.”The priest from Cáceres revisits one of the Church's most popular movements in his latest work, “We've Never Seen Anything Like It”.
By Jose Beltran
For sixteen years, he served as president of Communion and Liberation, becoming the first successor to founder Luigi Giussani after his death. Under his leadership, the movement grew to encompass around one hundred thousand committed members across more than eighty countries.
In November 2021, he stepped down in compliance with Pope Francis' reform limiting leadership mandates within international associations of the faithful. Resigning at a “delicate moment in the life of the movement,” he facilitated the leadership transition requested by the Pope.
Three years later, this 74-year-old priest from Cáceres, Spain, shows neither resentment nor nostalgia over stepping down. Instead, his reflections are encapsulated in his new book, We Have Not Seen Anything Like It: The Transmission of Christianity Today (BAC).
Give me the recipe for evangelization today.
There are no recipes; that is the wonderful challenge we face. The only "recipe," if you will, is to take seriously the challenges of living the faith.
You can't live on borrowed convictions; you must test the value of your answers in life. That means engaging with people who are ideologically distant, like the head of the Communist Party or a journalist with opposing views. I wanted to see if my reasons could hold up in such moments, enabling me to live my faith with full awareness and rationality, not just as a devotional act.
In this search for reasons for faith, how do you avoid building a wall of resistance against the world or falling into relativistic compromise?
I don’t understand those who see dialogue as an ambiguous stance. Was Jesus ambiguous when he went to Zacchaeus’s house and spoke with him instead of outright condemning him as a thief? Jesus entered relationships with full humanity, engaging with Pharisees, disciples, and everyone else.
Those who lack confidence in their beliefs often resort to rigidity because they are not truly convinced of the strength of their position. If you are convinced of what you live and say, you can engage in dialogue—even with the devil. But if you're not, even the most fragile arguments can intimidate you.
I marvel at God's method: Jesus stripped himself of divine power, as St. Paul says, and entered reality unarmed, relying on the attraction of his proposal. He didn’t use power to overwhelm or silence others.
Doesn’t such dialogue require laypeople to move beyond passive participation?
Giussani never encouraged spectatorship. He always invited us to test our faith in reality, verifying it through life. Reducing Christianity to external formation detached from personal experience is a mistake. It won’t withstand secularism’s pressures and risks becoming just a discourse or ethic.
What about the rise of emotionalism as a response to secularism?
Since abstract discourse no longer resonates, many now turn to emotional gestures to attract others. But emotions must also stand the test of time. Like political parties relying on emotions to gain traction, sentimentalism can’t sustain itself without deeper roots. True strength lies in growing self-awareness. Without it, sentimentalism cannot defend itself against opposing views, and rigid discourse fails to attract others.
Is self-awareness the best defense against abuse?
Absolutely. If people aren’t capable of recognizing abuse, there will never be enough policing to prevent it. When individuals understand their own dignity, they can challenge anyone who would try to exploit them. The power of abusers diminishes as individuals grow in their self-awareness and strength.
Is it easier to remain an adolescent in faith than to mature?
Yes, it is. In a recent dialogue about the legend of the Grand Inquisitor, I realized how tempting it is to relinquish responsibility and let others dictate your life. But this temptation robs you of freedom. Exposing this tendency is essential to authentic growth.
What message would you like readers to take from your book?
The title: We have not seen anything like it. Many people today believe they already know Christianity; they see it as irrelevant or unsurprising. But what did the first disciples experience? They encountered Jesus and realized they had never seen anything like him. If there is no real encounter today, Christianity becomes just a memory or a set of rules that people will eventually abandon.
Is there such a thing as a Christian who isn’t in love?
Too many Christians are missing Christ in their daily lives. There’s a song by an Italian artist that says, “I am not without your presence.” Without that encounter, we miss the essence of faith.
Did you experience confusion over your replacement in Communion and Liberation?
No. As soon as I understood what was required, I stepped down when the time came. I have never been attached to positions of power, then or now.
Is it better to live without positions and responsibilities?
Absolutely, but it depends on how you use your time of retirement. For me, it’s an opportunity to see if Christ can fill my heart now that I’m no longer consumed by activities. Retirement is a test: when no one calls, no one sends you emails, and you are no longer "somebody," what sustains you? If you haven’t discovered what truly makes you live, you risk falling into depression when stripped of external roles.
This article is featured in this blog as part of our commitment to fostering cultural dialogue and understanding. It is shared solely for educational purposes, aligning with our mission to explore and expand perspectives on societal and cultural themes. We aim to provoke viable insights and thought in the spirit of learning and discovery. The author has not revised the translation of the article.
