Inhabiting Our Time

Julián Carrón, Monica Maggioni, Alessandra Gerolin — An evening at the Triennale of Milan presenting the new book “Inhabiting our time. Living fearlessly in the age of uncertainty.”

Gerolin - Good evening, I warmly welcome all those present and those who are following this moment, this discussion on the volume "Inhabiting our Time: Living without Fear in the Age of Uncertainty". Before we begin the discussion, I would like to warmly thank the President of the Triennale, Stefano Boeri, who unfortunately cannot be here due to prior commitments, but who has kindly sent us a greeting through a video that we will share with you.

Boeri - Good evening, everyone; first of all, welcome to the Triennale. I am sorry that I cannot be with you physically, I am in Rome, at Maxi, for the awarding of the winning architects of the annual prize that Maxi and Triennale give to the best Italian creatives. However, I would like to greet you and express my appreciation for this meeting of yours. I think it confirms that the Triennale is not only a center dedicated to design, architecture, graphics, urbanism, and fashion, but also a place where culture means exploring the deeper questions that affect our existence in the world. We face the growing uncertainty that characterizes contemporary life.

Your text, as is typical of its authors, delves deeply into these issues and asks us about the uncertainty that pervades our daily lives. At a time when various crises - from the pandemic to the ongoing wars, from climate change to the great issue of inequality - seem to be accelerating and overlapping on different fronts of life, the Triennial is preparing to address these issues in the next International Triennial, which will open next May.

This event confirms that the Triennale is an institution that is not only open, but deeply interested in hosting dialogues ranging from philosophy to anthropology, theology, as well as design disciplines, creating a common space for discussion and reflection. Thank you again for being here with us. I hope this is the beginning of more possible dates. Have a good evening and thank you again.

Gerolin - We would like to express our sincere thanks to Lidia Salerno, director of Bur Rizzoli, our publishing house, who has accompanied all the phases of the planning and realization of this volume with great passion, competence, and professionalism. I would also like to thank Lucio Lorenzi, with whom I worked almost daily to complete this work. Thank you for your patience and expertise. You are welcome, Lidia Salerno.

Salerno - In my role as head of Bur Rizzoli, I am deeply happy and proud to have included in our catalog this precious dialogue between three of the most authoritative voices in contemporary Christianity. Why am I so proud? This book deals in a compelling and timely way with the transition from a Christian world that was taken for granted until a few years ago to an era of secularization that has completely revolutionized the landscape. This change has created many uncertainties and anxieties that plague our lives today. At the same time, I see it as a great opportunity, because accepting the Christian proposal becomes a free and radical choice.

I have read this book both as an editor and as a simple reader, and I have found it to be an illuminating and comforting work, which increases its value in our catalog. I would like to briefly share some reflections that struck me deeply, both as a reader and as an individual immersed in the age of secularization. First, I appreciated the emphasis on the importance of building relationships and friendships. I also noticed how the acceptance of the Christian proposal automatically brings enthusiasm and joy to those who accept it.

Turning to more concrete issues, I found very significant the ability of the three authors to link their philosophical, religious, and theological reflection to concrete issues in our world, such as the pandemic - the context in which the conversation took place - and then war and climate change. Finally, I was deeply struck by their treatment of the theme of fulfillment, which is clearly and enlighteningly described not as the mere satisfaction of contingent desires, as one might think in a secularized age, but as a journey accompanied by grace toward something higher.

In short, it is a read that I am very proud to have in our catalog. I will now turn the floor over to those who can speak more knowledgeably about it than I can.

Gerolin - Thank you, Lidia and the entire Bur team, for your warm words and valuable contribution. It is a great honor to welcome our guests. A round of applause for Monica Maggioni, RAI journalist, whose curriculum vitae, if we were to read it all, would take up the entire meeting time, so we will avoid that. Julián Carrón, Professor of Introduction to Theology at the Catholic University of the Sacred Heart in Milan, one of the three protagonists of our dialogue, along with Charles Taylor, eminent philosopher and scholar of secularization, and Rowan Williams, former Primate of the Anglican Church and a prominent figure on the contemporary cultural, human and intellectual scene.

The volume, Inhabiting Our Time. Living Fearlessly in the Age of Uncertainty" contains some of the dialogues of the documentary film of the same name, directed by Giulia Sodi and presented at the Rimini meeting in 2021. However, the book offers a broader and more nuanced journey, thanks to material recorded during the height of the Covid-19 pandemic. We got a little carried away and recorded about eight hours of dialog on my cloud, and that is where the idea for this volume came from.

I don't want to take up any of the valuable dialogue between our distinguished guests this evening, but I would like to make two brief points. First, this volume is not merely an intellectual reflection; it is a lively dialogue among close friends. They have not been brought together by chance to satisfy intellectual or cultural curiosity but are united by a genuine friendship that has been cultivated over the years, and that involves not only the three protagonists but also a network of collaborators who share a fundamental interest in the meaning of life and coexistence in our time.

Secondly, in recognition of where we are, I would like to emphasize the meaning of the verb "to inhabit". We are in the House of Design, and "inhabiting our time" recalls a fundamental vision of the Magisterium of Pope Francis: not to occupy spaces, but to initiate processes. Dwelling, as the philosopher Martin Heidegger also emphasized, is not simply being or staying in a place for a certain period of time, but indicates the specific way in which man exists in the world. It implies caring for oneself and others and requires deep self-awareness and constant engagement with the reality that surrounds us.

This attitude of dwelling calls into question a human subject that does not need to define itself in opposition to others in order to exist but is capable of initiating a creative search for its own identity and that of others. The three protagonists of this dialogue embody this irreducibility, generating hope for the future and facing the inevitable moments of uncertainty not as a suspension of the engagement with life, but as an integral part of an authentically human journey of knowledge.

I now give the floor to Monica Maggioni and Julián Carrón.

Maggioni - Thank you, Alessandra, for everything you have told us and for opening this path with us, right Julián? I was thinking while Alessandra was talking that inhabiting, especially here at the Triennale, has a special meaning. The fundamental difference between inhabiting and simply being is the element of relationship. When you inhabit a place, you are in a relationship not only with people but also with space and objects. Being part of a particular context also changes you. This dynamic reflects real human relationships, and it is reflected in the structure of this book. It is not a matter of convincing someone at all costs, as is often the case in contemporary discourse, but rather of establishing a dialogue in which people question questions that do not have simple answers, using concepts such as time, deep reflection, and analysis.

However, Julián, I find it more natural to ask questions than to give answers, so I inevitably focus on the questioning aspect. One of the most valuable experiences for me was sharing the genesis of this book, from the moment you worked on it with Massimo Bernardini and others, for the exhibition and the genesis of this whole project. What fascinated me most was the deep correspondence between the questions we ask each other or are asked and the experiences we then have.

What interests me above all is the attempt to face reality, to observe it without filters, and to tell it as it is. The questions that arise, not only in our personal context but also in a broader context, allow us to share a privileged dialogue. Indeed, the great debate on secularization deeply reflects the crisis of our time, as we search for answers and possible ways forward in a world where many of the rules of the game have changed, if not disappeared.

In a world where we no longer seem to have a clear frame of reference, where we find ourselves surrounded by those who seek security in rigid systems of rules and those who proclaim the end of all hope and meaning, we wonder what path is possible. Julián Carrón, your book seems to address this very question, proposing a path of exploration and reflection.

Carrón - Good evening, everyone, this is the most fascinating adventure we can undertake in inhabiting reality. One of the main challenges of this time is the disappearance of many of the approaches that were common until a few decades ago, which makes our journey even more adventurous because we lack clear signs to orient ourselves individually.

In this context, the three of us have found ourselves in different situations, but we share a fundamentally attuned approach to this time, albeit with different emphases and histories. We do not see our time as a condemnation, a burden, or something to be avoided but as an extraordinary opportunity to test the soundness of our views in the face of the challenges we face.

This experience is particularly astonishing for me, who grew up in a much more homogeneous and unified period of history, not necessarily more authentic, but certainly less multicultural and diverse. The journey I have had to take from my birth in 1950 until today has been remarkable and unexpected, going through such diverse and challenging situations.

I think of my contemporaries and imagine that this challenge is even more intense for young people born in an era where the directions are more confusing. From this point of view, it is fascinating for me to undertake this adventure and to share it with the people with whom I have lived it over the years, including these two friends with whom I have shared the journey.

Maggioni - I have to say that Rowan Williams, at one point in our dialogue, talking about this very moment that so deeply challenges us, expressed a sense of sympathy for the desire to recover the tradition, but he also warned against the danger of making it so self-referential that it loses its living meaning. Williams emphasized that in such a challenging and difficult time, in which we are deeply in crisis, mere adherence to tradition cannot be enough. There is a danger that it becomes a formal practice that leaves you uncertain about what you are really embracing.

Carrón - In a sense, we can say that tradition represents all the wealth accumulated by the people you are born into. When I talk to children about tradition, I often start with a simple example that everyone can understand: "Imagine you are given a very complex technological device... What does the person who built it do to make it easier to use and to prevent it from being destroyed the first time it is used?" The answer is always, "Include instructions for use. Just as we were not given detailed instructions on how to live our lives, we were fortunate to be introduced to reality through the face of our mother and with the support of the people into whom we were born. This tradition taught us to pay attention, to avoid danger, and to try different ways of doing things.

For me, tradition has never been a self-referential baggage, but rather a starting point to face the new challenges we encounter. I have always enjoyed comparing myself with others and testing whether the working hypotheses offered by tradition, acquired during my training, can hold up in the face of novelties, provocations, and real-life challenges. Using tradition in a self-referential way goes against its true purpose: it is a tool, a working hypothesis to be tested and, if necessary, corrected or adapted according to changing circumstances. Today we live in a very different world from the one I grew up in, and this requires us to dialog with people from traditions different from our own.

Maggioni - But examining and, if necessary, adapting the tradition presupposes that we already have a pattern of reference. For many people, however, this pattern never existed or has definitely collapsed. So in a situation where the starting point that once existed is completely missing, you find yourself without any reference, without any anchor point to begin the path or the journey.

Carrón - In a way, we can say that even in this situation of change, where there seems to be no fixed point, a point of reference emerges. Truly surprising things appear before our eyes. Let's take a trivial example: I recently arrived at the school where I teach, a technical institute and a colleague told me about a small conflict in the classroom. Students were complaining that one of their teachers was not listening to them. I took the opportunity to talk to them, not so much to determine who was right, but to get them to reflect on what they had discovered about themselves in this situation. This episode revealed to them a deep need to be heard before any external judgment.

Another example shared with me was of a teacher who was confronted with a child with Down syndrome in crisis during an activity. The teacher decided to make direct and reassuring contact with the child, who gradually calmed down and found comfort in the group of his peers. These sudden episodes reveal unexpected points of reference that emerge in times of need.

What seems to emerge from these stories is that, amidst the confusion and lack of fixed points, there are still irreducible elements. These elements cannot be easily reduced or explained. As Houellebecq said, something endures even when everything around us seems to collapse. These moments force us to confront essential questions about our existence and purpose, as Billie Eilish's song, which won this year's Oscar, suggests.

Paradoxically, it is from human experience and daily challenges that fixed points emerge, inner compasses that guide us in our relationship to reality. These landmarks help us navigate the ceaseless flow of life and seek answers to the deepest questions about who we are and how to live fully in our time.

Maggioni - From the beginning of our conversation tonight, one word that came up frequently was "fear. It seems that uncertainty and loss of certainty inevitably lead to feelings of fear that manifest themselves on a deeply personal level, such as what you have brought to light: fear of facing emptiness, which can be interpreted as boredom or, by other names, and fear of relating to others.

This fear, when it spreads and becomes a dominant way of interacting in society, takes on a collective value and seems to have almost a multiplier effect. Personal insecurity in relation to the time in which we are given to live can lead us to reject others as a first instinctive reaction, seeing in them a potential threat and identifying an enemy to be fought. Paradoxically, in this dynamic of replacing personal insecurity with strength in confrontation with the imaginary enemy, a kind of security is built.

However, this personal path is then reflected at the societal level, determining whether or not society can sustain itself and build positive relationships with the rest of the world. As I mentioned earlier, this debate about the secular age is peculiar to certain aspects of the West, but it speaks deeply to the crises we are experiencing.

So how can we navigate through this anxiety and build a more resilient collective future?

Carrón - From the beginning of our conversation tonight, one of the words that came up most often was "fear. But I realized that uncertainty and fear do not have to be seen as enemies. On the contrary, just as one begins to "inhabit time" and experience this period of history, one can begin a human journey that allows one to regain certainty and face the other without unfounded fears.

One of the most significant signs of this moment is the constant verification of one's own path in front of others, especially those who are different from us. Personally, I met many people who were at the antipodes of my beliefs, but my interest in relating to them was twofold. First, I wanted to test whether my ideas about how to interpret reality could stand up to comparison with their experiences and perspectives. Second, I wanted to enrich myself through dialogue, which was often the case. More often than not, I emerged from these encounters with a greater ability to understand and accept the other person, as well as a better sense of the truth that the other person could offer.

Dialogues with different people thus become much more enriching than those in which we simply repeat the same ideas to each other. They force us to question ourselves, examine our beliefs, and consider whether there is anything we can correct or enrich in the way we see the world.

In a world as rich in diversity as ours, diversity is not just chaos but a fascinating adventure. Every encounter with difference becomes an opportunity to challenge each other to grow and improve.

Maggioni - There is no doubt that it is a fascinating adventure, but it is also true that there is a real struggle to overcome the comfort of one's own corner, with its familiar instructions, and the rules of the game of yesteryear. If at the beginning you talked about looking at the discourse of secularization with sympathy, in the end, the assumption is reversed: secularization, far from being the enemy - although, to be honest, it does not matter, read the book anyway, it is worth it - is rather a real stimulus, a real provocation that forces you to revise all your assumptions. That is why when it comes to friendship and this passage, I find it extremely valuable, as I said before. Fortunately, in addition to "fear," another word that comes back is "journey." The idea of associating the concept of walking with friendship - I think anyone who has experience as a great walker understands immediately what I mean. Friendship is born the moment you decide to walk a path with someone, maybe talking or maybe just walking in silence, but what unites you is the effort, the rhythm of the steps, and the mutual respect. It is the walk itself that becomes a moment that strengthens the friendship. So you turn the walk into an opportunity to reflect on friendship.

Carrón - This is a part that, as you say, has its share of fatigue and its share of adventure. Precisely because there is diversity, it is necessary to take the time to understand the nuances, to enter into the other person's world, to understand why they see things in a certain way, and to truly empathize with their reasons. Without that, there can be no friendship. Friendship also arises with people who have a different perception of reality, because we make an effort to listen to each other, with that sympathy that always surprises me. I have friends with whom I am at polar opposites in terms of attitude, but I am the first to be surprised by the bond that is created, how much we enjoy exchanging points of view, and how much we care to listen to each other precisely because of our diversity. This requires courage; it is only for the brave! Those who seek only clarity and try to reduce the other to a pattern, who are unwilling to be surprised by diversity, deprive themselves of many opportunities. But for those who have the curiosity to understand where a certain way of looking at reality comes from, then it becomes... It seems to me that this is necessary for everyone, I think for all of you here. Think of the dialogues between parents and children, between teachers and students, between colleagues: diversity can be an opportunity to build friendly relationships or uncertainties that impede any progress. It is a risk worth taking.

Maggioni - It is a risk worth taking. As you were speaking, I was thinking, "Yes, all true," but you included, without saying so, a key element, of the slowness of rebuilding the relationship. Another dimension that has emerged in our world is time in relationships. In the absence of time in relationships, one looks for quick answers because one moves quickly and has no time to discover the beauty of the other. What one perceives in the other becomes reactive, an element of rejection. To find the beauty in the other, you have to take time for what you call the taste, the sympathy, and the need to discover, where the other becomes a valuable element that takes you into new territories. The fact that time has been neglected in human relationships is another of the challenges of our time that we have to face.

Carrón - Certainly, because there is often a lack of dialog: we are faced with opposing schemata. Nuances emerge in daily life, in living together, in time, and this requires that we give ourselves time. It is essential to give time to living together because, too often, we form an image of the other person as soon as we meet and greet him or her: "X." This initial judgment can become a stigma that affects the entire relationship. But how often does the person in front of us say "other," many things other than the "X" we have labeled him or her with? Yet we do not move an inch from this schematically defined impression. It is inevitable to form a preconception, a first impression of anyone you meet - unless they are a rock. "He's nice, he's kind, he's serious" - these are just cracks through which one can begin to build a relationship that is enriched if one is open to coexistence, that can transform and enrich that first glance, that first impression. As Jean Guitton said, it is necessary to "submit reason (the image we have made of ourselves) to experience (which then emerges)". Without this attitude, in the end, there is a lack of time, a lack of dialogue, and, therefore, a lack of relationship because we are reduced to opposing patterns, which is the death of true dialogue.

Maggioni - We are now coming to one of those areas where it is clear that there is a lack of dialogue and relationship precisely because of the assumption. I read a passage of Taylor's that I found again, which I think is illuminating and deserves reflection. Charles Taylor says: "There are different kinds of secularism and secularism. There is one kind of secularism that seeks to protect religion from government interference, as in the case of the founding of the United States republic. But there is another that seeks instead to protect the state from religion, as much of French secularism did in response to the Catholic monarchist movement." Taylor goes on to say, "Personally, I believe in the kind of secularism that promotes the neutrality of the state, accompanied by maximum freedom of conscience for the individual. This is a turning point, and I leave it to you to consider the consequences of this turning point.

Carrón - It seems to me that this is a fundamental part of the path that history has taken. There are different ways of combining the ingredients of religion and political power. Taylor summarizes the different models known to anyone in touch with reality, and one cannot avoid deciding which mode to adopt. Even the Church has had to go a long way in defining the relationship between truth and human freedom. As Taylor notes, starting from the Constantinian model, after Theodosius, the Church found it necessary to impose Christianity and consider the truth in various ways.

These are bold statements that require precise thinking and subtle distinctions, but the Church had to go through a long process. Even in the Protestant world, despite the affirmation of freedom, we eventually bowed to the principle of cuius regio, eius religio. It took the Second Vatican Council not to admit failure but to accept the principle that if one cannot convince everyone of Christian truth, one must at least defend religious freedom. The Council articulated an even deeper rationale: the very nature of Christian truth demands freedom. This radically changes the way a Christian relates to reality. When thinking about God's plan, it is provocative to ask, "If you had all the possibilities to change the world like God, where would you start?" No one would have guessed the method God used in choosing Abraham to change the world. Anyone would have used power and other means of persuasion.

When God sent His Son into the world, He did not do it with power: He was born in a manger, far from power, to bring new life to those who meet Him. That is why it says, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's," clearly distinguishing the kind of relationship Taylor spoke of. In an age of secularization, I am struck by the naiveté with which we think we can continue to impose a concept other than the one used by God, based on attractiveness. When Jesus says, "Whoever follows me will have a hundredfold here on earth," he invites people to personally verify the truth of his proposal, not by imposing it, but by showing how life can multiply a hundredfold. He leaves it up to each person to verify for themselves whether his proposal leads to an intensity and fullness that our attempts cannot match.

Maggioni - But this becomes a direct question. In the midst of this widespread uncertainty, if we say, "It is not the imposition of faith, but the attraction," where is this attraction? How do you build it?

Carrón: You build it by living, you build it by the newness of life. How did Jesus do it? He went into the real world, into a multicultural context: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Baptists... And there he was, immersed in reality, living, looking at people, valuing them, adopting a way of relating to them, a capacity for mercy that sometimes caused scandal: "Behold, he is an eater and a drinker, a friend of tax collectors and sinners" (Mt 11:19). This way of being in the world was perceived as contrary to God's plan. So how did he pose? He posed with his life! In a world like ours, where we often lose the taste for life, it seems to me to be a valuable contribution to bringing "life" where people, in their daily work, in their excursions, in their coffee breaks, can find before them a life that radiates beauty and fullness. It is a challenge to rationality and freedom, simply radiant.

Maggioni - And here we return to the example from earlier. When time is so marked, even by the sense of emptiness we talked about earlier, there is often the experience of achieving great things and then wondering, "What now? Where do I go from here?" It is an extraordinary experience because it makes you realize that the limit is not in the things you have accomplished or the successes you have achieved. So how do you start to build an answer?

Carrón - That is part of the adventure, because each person, precisely because there are no certainties, starts with a working hypothesis. It's not that you have the right idea in your head and that's why you set out. Or that the idea comes to me and that's why I go. Each of us, from whatever starting point, has to test whether the hypothesis from which we start is capable of being realized. This is the challenge Jesus posed: "Do you think you live as well as you live? But I propose another possibility: 'Whoever follows me [...] will have a hundredfold in this life.'" No one can presume to be right just because he thinks he is.

He is right only if he can give to life what he hopes for, what he needs to live fully. And here lies part of the verification of the initial assumption that one makes, for here one will be able to... Like when you're sick, if the treatment doesn't work, you can't keep taking Advil to cure the tumor, that would be crazy. If the treatment turns out to be a complete failure, it is wise to look for other options. In order to continue the adventure, I really need to find people who can offer me what I thought I understood but could not find on my own. So I begin to see if there is someone from whom I can receive what I lack, despite my success!

Because the problem - this has always struck me - is not when people fail, but when they fail and it is not enough! I was amazed by the case of Marrakesh who, after the great success of the tour, wrote a post in which he said: "After this success, I found myself in an unnatural emptiness and silence". It was the last thing he expected after the success and he had to admit: "I fill the time but not the emptiness". And so the adventure begins anew. Can one cling to what has proven to be a failure or open up new possibilities? Does he have the curiosity in the morning to find out if he can meet someone who can offer him new perspectives? If not, he will be forced to settle for the emptiness he is already experiencing, but as Eliot said, those who settle accept that they "lose their lives by living".

Maggioni - During our conversation, you touched on another central word that is often used controversially: the word "freedom. "Freedom" has this basic ambivalence: it is the most beautiful of all; it resonates with dreams, abundance, humanity, and perspective, but it is also often distorted to impose limits or to attack others. There is always a very subjective action in this talk about freedom that ends up becoming a weapon against someone else. Instead, your approach to freedom, which I must say is in line with Taylor, is very interesting. I recommend that you read his book because it offers a clear and profound perspective on this vast and important topic. The discussion of freedom is particularly relevant because it shows that there is a common path, despite the differences in interpretation that we may have.

Carrón - Recovering it. It is interesting to fully understand what freedom is because when one uses it in one sense or another, it is necessary to verify whether one's mode is dictated by true freedom or by the need to impose something on others. What has always struck me - and here I recognize the great genius of Don Giussani - is the way he understands freedom. He says, "Freedom is understood more as an adjective than as a noun. I feel free when..." He gives the example of the son who wants to go on a trip: if the father refuses, the son becomes angry because he feels that he is not allowed to feel his desire. If the father says yes, the son feels free.

This is where Don Giussani begins to explore an experience that we all have: "Freedom is the fulfillment of a desire". The great problem he poses is that human desire is boundless and infinite: when we get what we have dreamed of, it is never enough and we realize the greatness and infinity of our desire. As Leopardi brilliantly put it, "Everything is small, insignificant compared to the capacity of the soul. But unlike those who see this as a misfortune, for him it is a sign of human greatness. So the real question is, "Is there anything that can adequately satisfy this infinity of desire?

Only by achieving such a profound experience of freedom can we be completely satisfied, without the need to impose anything on others or to use power against them because all this would be insufficient compared to the fullness we feel in the fulfillment of our desire. Only in this way can we free ourselves from every trap; otherwise it will be a constant struggle until death because man cannot avoid wanting everything: this is not within his capacity, and so he feels empty, unsatisfied, and oppressed by boredom, as Leopardi says. But how is it possible that we, who are so fragile, can "tan alto senti"? It is possible because we are created for a fullness so great that we cannot help feeling the urgency to fill it, as Houellebecq says: "I cannot avoid, even if I think so, to want to be loved, to love! So it is impossible for a person, even if he denies it, even if he theorizes that he feels good in boredom - as I heard, and to which I could not help replying: "But what do you do in boredom?" "I do something..." "You see, you have to do something because you can't stand it." Only when freedom for us is the experience of this abundance can we not impose it on others and be free of their impositions, because we will not need them or the crumbs they can offer us. Only then will we understand why freedom is so rare in our time.

Maggioni - It really is a rare commodity in this vision. We're pretty much at the end of our journey, but I'm only going to take two minutes, just two because I wanted to get to one more word. If you look at the dynamics of our time and even the geopolitical dynamics, if you stand up, get off our planet, and look at it from above, the answer to the question, "Is there hope?" is no, there is no alternative, it is no. For all the things that it's useless to list for you, from the levels of conflict on the planet to the dominant issue that I find inescapable at the moment, that of the deep inequality that divides the world. So the answer is "no." But if you decide to immerse yourself in it, the perspective changes, and then that question becomes an action to be taken, it is no longer just a question.

Carrón - Regarding the "no," I say, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are contained in your philosophy," as Shakespeare says. There is hope because there is someone other than ourselves who can give us that hope. We often see this in relationships, especially when we are faced with the experience of such a full commitment, I think of figures like St. Paul - knowing his history, knowing that he had been rigidly dogmatic and impositional - what freedom did he have to conquer, what fullness did he have to achieve in order to be able to say that he had found "a hope that does not disappoint"? What kind of experience did he have to go through to be able to face every challenge with such confidence?

Nothing was spared from St. Paul, but each trial strengthened his conviction that "neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:38-39). This is the basis of hope, as Péguy said: "To hope, one must have received a great grace.

This is what I hope for each one of us because without this grace, the alternative is to think that there is no hope, even though our very nature, as Pavese says, urges us to hope: "Why do we wait if no one has promised us anything? Waiting is in our nature! But when life squeezes us, puts us in a corner, confronts us with extreme situations, we can lose hope. Fortunately, "there are more things in heaven and earth than our philosophy could ever dream of," and so there is another possibility, which we may not have experienced yet, but which has happened as a fact in history. For there is no hope unless there is someone who has conquered death.

Hope is measured by the ability to face the last obstacle. But because it happened in history, even though it touched some people, we cannot deny that it happened, it is like the discovery of penicillin: those who were born later know that it happened. We have come to this point, we can think, "This is crazy, this is an illusion," or we can open the door to this possibility. But it doesn't change the fact that whatever the other person's position is, I can't look at it hopelessly. As a friend said to me during a book presentation, "I don't believe in resurrection, but I can't imagine eternal life without you.

Maggioni - This is a way to "inhabit" our time. Thank you.

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Monica Maggioni is the Chief Executive Officer of RaiCom in Rome. She is also the former President of RAI—the Italian National Public Television—and Vice President of EBU—the European Broadcasting Union.
Julián Carrón is a Spanish Catholic Priest and Theologian, the former leader of the International Movement for Communion and Liberation.
Alessandra Gerolin is an associate professor of Moral Philosophy at the Catholic University of the Sacred Heart. She has dealt with conscience and freedom from a philosophical-moral and philosophical-political perspective; later her research focused on issues pertaining to secularization.

Unrevised notes, transcription, and translation by the authors. Download.
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