Our Humanity and Work
Julián Carrón - The dialogue titled "Our Humanity and Work", featuring Father Julián Carrón, Professor of Theology at the Catholic University of the Sacred Heart, and moderated by Antonio Intiglietta, President of Ge.Fi. Spa and the Artigiano in Fiera Foundation, offers a profound and timely reflection on the role of work in human life. Held on March 12, 2025, at 21:00 at the WJC Auditorium (Viale Achille Papa 30, Milan) and promoted by the Fondazione Artigiano in Fiera, this event invites attendees to explore the deeper significance of work beyond its utilitarian purpose.
Antonio Intiglietta: "Tell me somethin', girl Are you happy in this modern world?
Or do you need more? Is there somethin' else you're searchin' for? Tell me something, boy. Aren't you tired tryin' to fill that void? Or do you need more?
Ain't it hard keepin' it so hardcore?
This gathering stems from our reflections on our company’s experiences, which we wanted to share with you all. Thank you for joining us. We feel it’s crucial to tackle the issue of our humanity in one of the key areas of our lives: the workplace. So much of our time is spent there, and we risk losing touch with our humanity, as Julián often points out. Alternatively, we can see it as a chance to grow as individuals, to become the main characters in our own stories and, by extension, in the broader narrative of history.
So, we thought this issue deserved a conversation. I reached out to someone who, for me, my wife, my family, and many friends, has been the greatest friend since Don Giussani. He’s helped me embrace my true self, not trying to mold me into something else, but encouraging me to be authentic. Because of the deep respect I have for him, I asked if he could kindly help us in this gathering. Now, I’ll hand it over to Julián.
This isn’t a lecture or a formal talk; it’s a gathering meant for reflection, response, and conversation. Julián will kick things off with an introduction, and then we’ll engage in a dialogue, drawing from our own experiences and what we care about concerning our humanity, especially at work. Thank you.
Julián Carrón: Good evening, everyone. Thank you, Antonio, for inviting me; I’m delighted to be here. You’ve shared your concerns about work with me, and I think it’s a telling sign of the times we’re in. Lately, we’ve seen things like the great resignation, unease in the workplace, and the struggle to keep employees, as they tend to switch jobs based on what they want.
All this points to a lot of unrest in the world of work. I believe that if we pay attention to what we can learn from the challenges of work, there are clear signs and indicators showing us what’s really important here.
Over the past three days, I’ve been to three or four meetings about work, which just shows how pressing this issue is for people and the various groups I meet. Not long ago, a young guy said to me, “You know, one of the earliest signs of this unease is waking up every day feeling crushed by a never-ending to-do list. Instead of feeling in control, you’re just drowning in tasks, and that’s a big clue about what’s going on with me.”
When I talk to others, they say things like, “I’ve lost faith in workplace relationships because of a bunch of stuff that’s happened—not worth going into detail. It makes work really tough because I don’t even know where to begin, how to tackle it, or what the future holds.”
And then there’s the constant stress about what others think, which just adds to the pile of reasons why work feels so tough. People are stuck, not sure how to keep going or even where this unease is coming from. But this discomfort can stem from so many things—you know this better than I do since you deal with it daily. Things like your own workload, how the workplace is structured, not getting the recognition you deserve. There are tons of factors, and I don’t want to try to cover them all tonight because it’s way too much for one session.
What really grabs me is what Antonio just pointed out: this is a fantastic chance to tackle something that affects all of us, no matter how it plays out in each person’s life, since that can differ based on individual circumstances.
So, work is turning into a way to really dig into what life is all about. It’s not just one part of life; as Antonio said, it’s one of the most important. Think about how many hours we spend working—it’s not just a bit of downtime or temporary stress.
We’re dealing with countless hours that challenge us. So many situations take us to our breaking point. That’s why I want to zero in tonight on something that helps us grasp, through our own experiences, what’s also coming through in the songs you brought up.
How can we turn this into an opportunity? Work is so central to our lives—it consumes us, it’s demanding, it fills our days from dawn to dusk. Like that young guy mentioned, you can feel completely overwhelmed by all the tasks piling up.
The harder you throw yourself into work, the more your true human nature starts to show. It’s not without its price: the more you pour in, the more something bubbles up to the surface. Take Marrakech from the song, for example: after an amazing tour with tons of shows, he boiled it all down to one line: “Huge success, but I’m left with this weird emptiness and silence.” Now what? He didn’t run off to the desert or start meditating to figure out what work means. The question about work’s purpose comes from deep within, from living life itself. This hits everyone, no matter what you believe, where you are, what your job is, or how successful you are—just like it did for him.
The more you dive into your situation, the more you start to realize what you really need deep down. What you’re doing just isn’t cutting it. Your cravings for fulfillment, happiness, and wholeness come rushing to the forefront simply by living your life. It’s not like you can just pause and think about it for a bit. Work pushes you so hard that you can’t help but become aware of everything you are.
That’s why Don Giussani used to say that if you’re spared the struggles of life, you’ll never truly know yourself or feel the pulse of your own mind. The more you throw yourself into it, the more you’re caught off guard by these deep needs that make up who you are.
It’s a revelation. Marrakech talks about feeling that emptiness as something totally out of place; he figured that massive success would fill every gap. But instead, he’s shocked to find out something new about himself that he never saw coming.
How often have we all dreamed of hitting a target, reaching a milestone, fulfilling a wish, or getting to a certain point in life, only to be blindsided by something we learn about ourselves? That’s why I’m always struck by a line that some people picked out from Giussani’s biography. Violante, with his sharp mind, nailed it when he highlighted this gem: “I think one of the crucial things for clear thinking is this: you don’t solve problems by attacking them head-on, but by understanding the person who’s dealing with them.”
We often bust our chops trying to dig into and fix every problem, but what’s really shocking is that what comes to light is the heart of our own issues. The harder we work at it, the more our true selves come out. So, the first thing I want to throw out there tonight is that this is an amazing chance to really get to know ourselves, even if it means questioning how we see ourselves.
We usually think that nailing a big success will make life complete, but then he sees that even after getting there, there’s this unexpected thing: a realization he has to deal with. If you don’t put in the effort, you can’t really understand or even notice all the things that make us human. Work isn’t just about money—it’s a chance for all of us, because let’s face it, we all have to work.
It’s a way to find out who you are, not by taking some philosophy class or getting a professional upgrade, but by just living—dealing with how tough work can be and really throwing yourself into it. It’s all about who we are: figuring ourselves out. That’s why being out of work hits people so hard; it messes with their sense of self when they can’t find a job.
Work is turning into something we never saw coming, and you can tell from all the unease it causes. What caught us off guard? That our desires are huge, boundless, so massive that even smashing success doesn’t leave us feeling full. The more you get to know yourself, the stronger that urge to satisfy that deep desire inside you becomes.
Work turns into a way to try to answer this longing that work itself digs up in your mind. The more you wake up to who you are, the more you want your job to match what you’re yearning for, to actually make happen what you want, addressing those needs that come to light when you really commit. And how do you make this self-fulfillment happen? We all have our ideas. I’ll just rattle off a few: some think chasing their dream job will do it. Others focus on personal development. Some go for creativity, others for being competitive, some for a bigger paycheck, and some for getting props and respect from others.
I could go on forever with examples, but the point is, everyone tries in their own way to meet these pressing needs that have come up. The more you realize this, the stronger that drive for fulfillment pushes you from the inside. Those of us watching from the sidelines, like spectators at a bullfight, can see that the harder someone works, the more they hunger for that sense of achievement and completeness. It’s not like you can just sit back and not feel that constant nudge.
Actually, through figuring out what you really want out of life, you get to step three: every shot you take at meeting those desires, no matter what you’re focusing on, forces you to compare what you’ve learned about yourself and what you truly need with your efforts to make yourself whole.
This realization makes you check if what you’re trying actually meets those needs that have come to light and that you’re now fully aware of. It’s not like it’s just your dad expecting things from you. No, now you’re the one with expectations for yourself, and you can’t ignore what you’ve come to understand about your own desires. And what else do we learn about ourselves in this process? Leopardi put it best, really concisely.
[Because even if you have it all, even if you had the whole universe, you’d still find that it’s not enough for what your soul can hold. You feel that something’s missing, you get bored, nothing seems to cut it. But don’t you crave more? – like that song by Salò says. Aren’t you fed up with trying to fill that emptiness? Are you satisfied with this world, or do you need something beyond?]
This is all about how you can’t box in a person’s spirit, and it shows up when you’re really living life. It’s not some religious figure or scholar saying this—it’s regular people who roll up their sleeves and give it their all to satisfy that deep desire that comes from dealing with the real world, only to find that nothing measures up to what their soul can handle.
So, maybe this is where all that unease comes from. That’s why it’s not just about tackling the problem directly, but about really understanding the person who’s dealing with it. If we don’t get this, we’ll just keep stumbling around, trying different things without success. And if you don’t figure out what’s going on, that discomfort just gets worse, and you start to doubt if there’s even an answer out there.
What do you do when everything you’ve tried isn’t cutting it? First thing: switch jobs, right? If this one isn’t doing it for you, maybe the next one will give you what you’re missing.
Or you might chase after perks at work. I lived in Ireland for years, and all those big American companies like Microsoft and Google don’t just throw money at you—they pile on the benefits to keep you from jumping ship after four years, which was about how long people stuck around, even with all the extras. But it still wasn’t enough for what they really needed, so after four years, they’d go looking for something else.
Why do people do this? They figure that by switching things up, they’ll fix the problem. But if you’ve got stomach cancer, moving to a new city doesn’t make it disappear—you take it with you wherever you go. Same thing here: you carry your unresolved issues with you. Or maybe you think that if you get a raise, that’ll plug the hole that work hasn’t filled, or you start craving approval from others. Just today, I had one person call me, then another… We think that getting props from people will make up for what we can’t seem to satisfy on our own.
You can see that it might be this or that, or a combination of things, but the truth is, nothing’s ever enough for what our souls can hold. Since that doesn’t cut it, we keep fumbling around for something more. But what comes out of this, like Leopardi points out, isn’t bad, even though we might think it is. It’s not wrong to dwell on what’s missing or what’s not satisfying. We don’t need therapy just because we’re feeling this way. It’s that we haven’t grasped that what we humans want comes from our experiences: something beyond measure.
So, you can take what Pavese said about pleasures and apply it to work: we’re chasing the infinite in what we enjoy, and nobody’s going to be happy with anything less. If we don’t get that what our dedication to work uncovers is something we didn’t even know was there—that we’re actually after something infinite—it’s not because there’s something wrong with us. We’re built for more than just what we can accomplish, create, or strive for. No, there’s something bigger we’re meant for. Our very nature is a mystery, as Leopardi talked about.
How can we be so breakable yet feel so deeply? How can we, with all our limitations, want so much? So much that nothing ever seems enough for what our souls can hold? If we don’t get this, we’ll just be tossed around by life, never finding the right answer, and no amount of perks, cash, or pats on the back will fill that gap. Because none of that can fix what’s really wrong. Maybe, through the things we go through, we start to see how incredible our nature is, like Leopardi said. That’s the real proof of how great we are.
So, no matter what we do, it’s never going to be enough. It’s not that there’s something extra you’re missing. Only realizing this can make us look at ourselves with real care and compassion. If we start blaming our job, our situation, or bad luck, we’ll always find something to pin our unhappiness on. But there’s no one to blame because everything in the world has its limits. It’s pointless to get mad at a single drop for not filling up the whole glass—the drop is just a drop, and the glass is the glass. If you don’t understand what the glass is like, you’ll keep getting frustrated with the drop, but that won’t fix the emptiness or the lack. I can keep busy, but that doesn’t fill the hole inside.
So, if we don’t get it, we just make things harder for ourselves, pointing fingers at all the usual suspects, as if we don’t see what’s really going on. It’s like trying to treat cancer with Tylenol. What would you say about someone who does that? That they’re clueless, because they don’t understand what cancer is.
Sure, you might think Tylenol does something, but if you know what cancer is, do you really think Tylenol’s going to fix it? If you’ve got a grip on what the human mind is like, what a person is, how vast and deep their desires are, can you seriously believe that any quick fix will do the trick? It’s not about how hard you try or how much effort you put in, because the more you do, the more you see that that’s not the answer. It’s about how we see ourselves. If we don’t change that, we’ll keep coming up with solutions that don’t work. But hey, no one’s saying you don’t mean well.
It’s like someone who sees you’re sick, knows you have cancer, and is genuinely concerned. They keep handing you Tylenol, and you think, “Thanks for trying.” You appreciate that they care, but all their well-meaning efforts aren’t helping. Lots of people do this out of kindness, but it doesn’t make a difference because to really help, you need to understand what’s actually wrong.
If we can’t figure out what’s really going on with us, how can we expect to get it for someone else? This is the heart of the matter. If we don’t address this, we can shuffle things around, make every change under the sun, fix our relationships, but the core issue will still be staring us in the face, even when everything else is perfect. Why? Because it’s about knowing, not just wanting. It’s about grasping what the problem truly is and what work is showing us about ourselves.
So, if we don’t deal with this, we’ll just keep spinning our wheels, getting more and more cynical, and even if we’re not getting more anxious, we’re still stressed out, and that stress spills over into everything we do. If you haven’t found a way to handle it, you’ll end up infecting everything around you with that same unease. Like we’re seeing, work is turning into this thing that really highlights how tough life can be. It’s not just a side note. When you drag yourself home after a long day, ticked off, mad, or down in the dumps, who gets the brunt of it? The first person you see, or the ones you care about most. Not because you’re mean, but because you can’t share what you don’t have. We’re walking around with this weight, and we end up passing it on, making things worse for everyone. That’s why work is actually a huge opportunity to tackle life head-on, a fantastic chance to figure out what living is all about.
The more you get this, the more you’ll see that you need to do some inner work while you’re at your job, because the job itself isn’t going to fix it. It’s something you have to uncover, something you have to work on to deal with this unease that hits us when we’re in these situations. I’ll wrap it up there.
Participant: Thank you, thank you. Alright, let’s get to the questions. The floor is open. Does anyone have something they’d like to ask? Go ahead.
Participant: At work, we made a mistake on a project site. What was interesting was that this mistake sparked a bit of a conflict.
Carrón: Looking for someone to blame.
Participant: Exactly. So, the technicians say, “No, it’s your fault, sales team, for making a promise to the client that couldn’t be kept.” And the sales team responds, “But we did it last time. You’re the one who wasn’t paying enough attention.” And that’s how the argument kicked off.
So, as the CEO, when I have to sit in on these meetings, it’s always tricky because if I back one group, the other group gets mad.
While I was trying to figure out how to handle the situation, a new employee, a young woman, spoke up and said, “Sorry, but it was my mistake. I didn’t understand the procedure properly, and that’s why this error happened. I apologize, and I’ll make sure to be more careful next time.”
Her admission caught everyone off guard because they were all ready to point fingers. But her straightforward honesty created a moment of clarity. It relates to what you were talking about because when someone acknowledges their infinite need and realizes they can only contribute what they can, it starts to reveal a deeper truth.
It’s striking that the one tasked with solving the issue can be a bit aggressive—they might come out on top or not, but there’s a certain harshness to it. But when someone accepts this inherent imbalance you mentioned, they somehow bring out these truths for everybody. So, what I’m getting at is, the more I embrace this idea you shared—that we’re all craving something infinite—the more I notice these small but profound moments that shed light on everything.
Carrón: I think it’s interesting because what you’ve said is already valuable. Recognizing this infinite need doesn’t always make it easier to admit “I messed up.” Even when people acknowledge that need, they often worry, “What will others think if I admit my mistake?” So, we tend to protect ourselves, don’t we?
Participant: Yeah, that’s usually how it goes.
Carrón: That’s why it’s striking: what needs to change in someone so they don’t care about what others think? What kind of inner strength do they need to not stay quiet or sweep their mistake under the rug? What do you think? This is how we can help each other dig deeper into this.
Participant: I’ll take a shot: here’s an idea.
Carrón: Always with a touch of irony.
Participant: I think that somehow, a person needs to have an experience of goodness somewhere—maybe not at work, but somewhere—that makes them realize their worth isn’t just about what they do, but about something more.
Carrón: Exactly, because without that, no one will admit it. So, it’s pointless for the boss or the CEO to tell everyone to be good; people won’t act right under normal circumstances unless they already have a sense of self that lets them not care about others’ opinions. They don’t tie their worth just to what they do; their worth comes from somewhere else, so they can admit when they’re wrong or when they’re lacking.
So, it’s only through that inner work, whether at work or elsewhere, as you mentioned, that someone can gain the freedom to admit their mistakes in front of others. And why did it shock you all so much? Because everyone else was busy trying to find who’s to blame. It’s not something you see every day; it’s rare and exceptional. So, I think we need to really get to the bottom of this, not turn it into some moral lesson for the superstars who can martyr themselves for the company. The reason it’s human to act this way is that the person doesn’t base their entire life or worth on what they do, unlike many of us who think our actions define us. So, saying “I messed up” feels like…
Participant: It’s like everything falls apart.
Carrón: …like your whole world is crumbling. That’s why it’s so uncommon. Each of these moments helps us understand the problem better and how to deal with it. If we just slap on band-aid solutions instead of getting to the heart of what’s causing this, then when something like this happens, it’s truly remarkable.
Participant: Thanks! Please, continue!
Participant: So, I’m a bit worried about something. I work with a partner who’s 77, and let’s face it, he’s getting up there in age. We get along really well, but the issue is, as I often say, you can’t change someone’s age, can you?
So, everyone, including my friends, is telling me, “You need to start thinking about how to reorganize, who to partner with next, whether to go solo or bring in someone younger.” It’s all about planning for the near future—it’s not here yet, but I have to start considering it. And ever since my partner said, “Look, 2026 will be my last year working,” it’s become urgent. Even though it’s reality, everyone is advising me, and I’ve talked to lots of people about it, but I can’t seem to find a way forward.
Whenever I try to tackle it, I get anxious about it. I know I have to face reality because it’s inevitable, and there’s probably something in it that will help me grow. But it’s like this big question mark: something vague that I sometimes ignore and sometimes try to face, but I can’t see a clear way forward. I don’t know how to put it. It’s something that’s not here yet, but it will be, and I don’t know how to approach it. I’d appreciate some guidance on this. Thanks.
Carrón: I see two issues here. First, what are you doing in the meantime while you’re looking for a replacement? How are you handling the person you currently have? I think the challenge is that you might just coast along until they retire, but that means missing out on being true to yourself. So, how are you dealing with this situation?
Faced with this person who has the issues you’ve mentioned, you could just put it off, ignore it, and wait for things to change on their own. Or, you could use this as an opportunity. When I’m in a situation like this, I ask myself, “What does this require of me?” Life doesn’t let me off easy; it’s a chance to grow. So, how do I respond to this person and this situation? That’s the first thing to consider, because if not, you might just tell yourself that the next phase will bring change anyway.
Sure, but often we have to work with people we find challenging. It’s a common thing. I recall asking someone to work with another person who had a tough personality. When I asked her to work with him, she said, “Please, anything but that,” because the thought alone made her nervous. That’s when I realized something I’ve since shared with others: “Hey, no issue if you don’t want to work with him; I’ll find another solution. But I’m not sure if that’s the best choice for you.” I said that because we often blame others for our problems, but they’re not the ones causing it. The person with the difficult personality isn’t the problem—they’re just showing you the problem you already have.
Why? Because I can be around this person and not feel intimidated. The issue isn’t with him; it’s with your own vulnerability when faced with his personality. If you want to grow and not be at the mercy of every difficult person you meet, you could walk away and deal with the stress elsewhere, or you could use this as a chance to free yourself once and for all from letting others’ temperaments control you.
So, work can be a training ground for personal development if you don’t avoid it. I’m thankful that life hasn’t let me off easy because by facing these challenges, I’ve seen how it’s beneficial for me to tackle everything head-on. Every situation is a chance to grow, as long as you don’t shy away from it. Got it?
That’s the first point, because it always comes down to the individual’s issue. You might offload the problem onto someone else or find a quick fix, and that’s okay, but it doesn’t mean you’ve actually grown from the experience that life threw at you. That’s the key thing to consider.
The second point is that only by understanding this will you be able to pay attention to the people you meet and find the right fit for the role you need to fill. Once you know what kind of person you’re looking for, you’ll be better at spotting the qualities needed in a replacement. So, stay strong.
Participant: Go ahead, the ice cream’s on its way. From what you’ve said, it sounds like things like job satisfaction and recognition aren’t all that important in the grand scheme. But for me, it’s different: when I approach work the way you talked about tonight, those things actually mean more to me. I can’t explain why, but with your words in mind, getting recognition and seeing a job well done feel way more rewarding than if I had just focused on those things alone.
Carrón: Exactly. But it’s not just that you’re more satisfied with these things. As I mentioned earlier, someone can achieve huge success—like I used to show my students an article about Olympic athletes who win big, such as Phelps with his seven gold medals in swimming, and still, they end up feeling unsatisfied. Get it? Even that massive success wasn’t enough. The article was all about how these athletes face depression after their big wins. They ask themselves, “Now what am I supposed to do?” You see?
So, for this to happen, all it takes is for the satisfaction they felt… These folks have won big, so they’ve dreamed big. If anyone knows about hard work, it’s them—they train like crazy for years to hit that target. You’d think that when they reach that goal, they’d be over the moon, right? But instead, they’re left with this emptiness, even with all the praise and cheers. So, what does it take for what you’re describing to happen? It’s not just about success, because a lot of these people end up depressed.
You can have a kind of satisfaction that’s not dependent on these external things, and that’s why you can truly enjoy it. I completely agree with you, but we need to include what makes that enjoyment possible, because others who don’t have that inner strength—like we talked about, without that sense of self—can’t admit their mistakes without knowing what truly fulfills them. You can’t really savor the satisfaction, you know? So, this inner work has to keep going, because if it stops, we see what happens. I’m always surprised by how these situations push us to figure out how to handle them.
Participant: I just wanted to share something. I’ve realized that in my current job, which is pretty straightforward, I’m in a really supportive environment. My colleagues are great, and there’s a strong emphasis on the human side of things, which is totally positive.
Right now, it’s easy for me to bring my feelings into work—I feel incredibly loved, and that love spills over to my colleagues. It makes work so much more satisfying.
But in the past, even though I’m the same person with the same self-love, I’ve been in jobs where I couldn’t have this experience. I tried to be open about my humanity, like Stefano mentioned, and admit my mistakes calmly, but I didn’t get understanding in return, so it was hard to bring my true self to work.
So, my question is: when you’re not in a great environment like I am now—I’ve been lucky here—but if I end up in a tough spot again, how can I still have a positive experience at work? There are some really harsh workplaces where it feels like humanity is missing.
Carrón: Let me ask you this: what have you learned from this experience you’re sharing? The thing is, we talk about our experiences, but the answer to your question is right there in what you’ve said—you just haven’t seen it yet! I want you to really think about the experience you’re describing.
Participant: Honestly, I’m not sure, but I can say that in my current job, there’s love and a sense of humanity.
Carrón: So, what allows you to be this way is that you’re loved. It’s not about what you do. If you’re not loved in one place, you can find love somewhere else. You can have a relationship that gives you the strength to endure any situation because of that love. You’re the same person everywhere. If you’re filled with joy and love, life makes you free, no matter the circumstances. You can handle any work environment. Sure, it’s nicer to work in a good atmosphere than a bad one.
It’s not that everything’s the same or that it doesn’t matter. For me, what’s important is being free no matter what, not letting someone else’s bad attitude at work ruin things for everyone. I want to be free even in tough situations. And you’ve hit on the key: to be free, it’s not just about doing or getting something; it’s about realizing that this is what sets me free to live anywhere, with that freedom. Freedom comes when you feel that desire for completeness is met, when you’re so full of it that you can handle any situation, not controlled by your surroundings, even if they’re tough.
That sense of fullness shapes your life, no matter what. The environment can’t control you because its hold on us is only as strong as our own weaknesses, our lack of that fullness, our lack of inner strength. The more vulnerable we are, the more we’re at its mercy.
Like I said before, in a recent conversation, someone told me they had a great work atmosphere for years, but then something changed—a personal issue with someone—and now that trust is gone. So, the problem was, they didn’t know how to deal with it. I think, in cases like this, it’s similar to having a coworker with a bad attitude. Do I just wait for them to get their act together so I can relax? Or can I do something that lets me stay free, even while they’re working through their issues? That’s the inner work I’m talking about, because life isn’t always going to be perfect like it is for you right now. Sometimes you’re lucky and land in a good spot, other times you’re not and it’s tough.
If you don’t have that freedom, you could end up like someone I talked to recently: there was a key person who kept the workplace friendly, but when they retired, everyone got anxious. If you’re relying on that, any change can throw everything off, and you’re back to square one.
But I want to be free no matter what, not constantly worrying that something might go wrong or that someone might cause problems. I want to find a way to stay free, regardless of the situation.
Participant: Thanks.
Participant: Thank you, go ahead. If I got this right, Don Carrón, you’re leaning into Leopardi’s pessimism. You said that the more I throw myself into work, the more I understand myself, and the more I understand myself, the more I stir up this longing for something infinite that I can never actually reach. So, where’s the balance in that? How do I find equilibrium?
Carrón: Thanks for that question—it’s exactly what work brings to light. But no, my friend, this doesn’t make me a pessimist like Leopardi. In fact, I can face it head-on because I’m not pessimistic. If I were, I wouldn’t even be talking about this.
This is the big question that comes up in discussions like this. The thing is, I can face this reality because I’m not a pessimist. And I’m not a pessimist not because I get everything I want, but because, like the lady mentioned, there are times when I experience a love that frees me from any sense of pessimism.
Because of that, I can look at things realistically. I always found it interesting that when I taught the Bible, especially St. Paul’s letter to the Romans, he describes the world in almost apocalyptic terms, and people are shocked that no one else had painted such a bleak picture. But why didn’t St. Paul, after meeting the resurrected Christ, have this overwhelming optimism? I mean, he saw someone who conquered death itself. You’d think he’d be the ultimate optimist, right? So how can he still see the world so realistically?
It’s because he doesn’t need to sugarcoat things to handle them. Get it? If he did, he’d probably get depressed by what he sees. But he can face it all, even if it looks pessimistic, because he has the optimism of knowing the answer. Otherwise, he’d have to downplay it: “It’s not that terrible, we can find a way, we can patch things up…” That’s what we often do.
So, I encourage him to grab the bull by the horns. That’s our challenge. And I’m challenging all of you: now, everyone has to decide if what we’ve discussed tonight is pessimistic or just realistic, and start doing that inner work to find the answer.
Participant: I’ll try to answer.
Carrón: Absolutely. That’s why I’m pushing you.
Participant: It almost sounded like you were saying that frustration is inevitable and we just have to live with it. Because we have this tiny drop when we’re looking at a whole glass—we’re humans with this longing for the infinite. But that frustration is what drives us forward. Focusing on what we haven’t achieved yet is what gives us the energy to keep going.
Carrón: Exactly.
Participant: So, maybe when we look back at our efforts, knowing we were chasing goals we can never fully reach, we see that this ‘flaw’ actually had a point.
Carrón: I completely agree. There’s definitely value in what you’re saying, but if that’s all there is for you, it’s not enough for me. The thing is, just because I can’t find the answer on my own doesn’t mean it can’t be given to me.
As Shakespeare said, there are more things in heaven and earth than we can imagine. Could it be that what we can’t achieve on our own, which might frustrate us, could actually be gifted to us?
The best things in life are the ones we receive as gifts. So, who says that everything we’re meant for—because it feels like we’re blaming our desires for being too big—to dodge this frustration, maybe we should tone down our desires, like in ancient Greece?
But hubris, that overreaching pride, is too strong… Maybe we should dial back our desires so we don’t get in over our heads. You might think: can we adjust our desires to be happy with less since we can’t fulfill them? I don’t want to do that! It’s not just that I don’t want to; I can’t shrink them, but I also can’t satisfy them.
Because, as Leopardi said, nothing is ever enough for what our souls can hold. But there might be another way. Could it be that someone else, who created me with such vast desires, can give me what I can’t achieve on my own? The fact that my longing for completeness isn’t satisfied suggests that there’s something or someone out there meant to fulfill it. That’s how life gains meaning without us having to shrink our desires to avoid frustration. But it’s a gift. I feel for those who don’t find or receive it, but when you do, you see why it’s not pessimistic to keep your heart’s desires intact.
Participant: Go ahead. Is there another question? Please.
Participant: Thanks. I’m wondering how to balance the push for competitiveness and excellence, which is the top priority in some workplaces, with caring for people. If someone can’t keep up and isn’t supported to improve, it can lead to problems and even a culture of discarding people.
Carrón: If I got your question right, the main issue is that the other person also has that need, right? So, it’s about caring for them. But don’t you feel the need to grow? Or are you okay with where you are? Like that song by Salò asks, “Is this enough for you?” If you start to see this, the best thing you can do for someone is to keep nudging them awake. Not by lecturing, but by living in a way that shows progress is possible.
And when someone sees another person who’s truly fulfilled, it makes them want to follow suit, because that’s the only way that really works for us as humans. We all tend to follow what draws us in, that sense of completeness we see in others. But we also have to respect their freedom. How long will it take for them to get there, to respond to that attraction? That’s up to them. If we don’t want to step on their freedom, we have to wait until they’re ready to start their journey. If they choose not to and just settle, well, they’re already paying the price because they’re missing out on the joy. If they’re fine with that, what can I do? I can’t force them.
Antonio: Alright, is there one more question? Anyone? Or is that it? Okay, first off, thank you. Thank you so much. I hope this is just the start of a conversation that we can continue over time, without rushing things. Tonight, we tackled the topic of humanity in the workplace.
There’s another big topic: what does it mean for work to be an expression of oneself versus a source of frustration? That would be fascinating to explore, but let’s take our time. This evening has been really helpful for me because there’s a taboo in today’s culture: the self, our humanity.
It’s rarely discussed; it’s often buried under formalities, appearances, and protective barriers, leaving our true selves—our humanity, our questions, desires, and loneliness—unexpressed. We struggle to share what really connects us: our shared questions, which are the same no matter our role or status in life, work, business, or society.
I think tonight we’ve started a way of talking and engaging that we can take back to our workplaces and communities, making them more human, as you’ve shown us, and thereby contributing to a greater sense of humanity for others. Thank you all, and have a great evening. Thank you, Julián.
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