The Journey to True Freedom

Julián Carrón - During a vacation, a thought-provoking dialogue unfolds on freedom, love, and the heart's desires, exploring how true fulfillment transcends routine.

The Search for Authentic Freedom

We don’t want to waste any time. First, I want to thank Julián immensely for this surprise. We had tried to invite him at the end of May, but then… the unexpected is our salvation!

As we mentioned last night, we hope this moment can be an opportunity to ask urgent questions that strike the deepest chords within us.

I’ll begin by saying that we want guidance, but this question isn’t about me. I’m sharing something written by a dear friend.

"I’ll start with the most important thing that has happened to me in recent months: I’m in love. It’s a time of waiting, during which it’s clear to me how much I love this boy; for him, it’s not as clear. I came here on vacation without planning it—unexpectedly due to my shifts at the hospital (I’m a nurse). Yesterday, I felt God calling me, as if He were saying, 'Hey, I’m calling you, I’m speaking to you.' First, through the first song we sang, Like the Sun Suddenly.

I’ve been listening to it almost every night, and it has kept me company during this period. From the first note, I started crying, overwhelmed with emotion, thinking, 'Okay, Jesus, I understand, this is for me.' Then the second song, Don’t Be Afraid, felt like a gentle reassurance. Hugh began to speak, and his question was about 'curiosity.'

That word resonates with me now more than ever: 'God, where are You? Show Yourself in my life!' Then, a friend spoke, and I heard myself described in every word. He said, 'I’ve never seen anything like this before!' That deep desire, the one that had left me feeling unsettled, was reflected in his words.

'It’s You. You’re here.' I didn’t need to think about God because He was right in front of me. I hadn’t even realized I was waiting for something so beautiful, but He was there, in front of me. It happens when I’m with this boy—the connection is real and indescribable. Then came the question, 'Is your heart truly captured, or not?' My first instinct was to say, 'No,' but then I realized nothing is ever enough for me, and my heart is crying out. How can it not, in the face of such powerful attraction?

A friend added, 'The relationship with reality changes you, and the sign is how your face transforms.' That’s so true! Over these weeks, I’ve felt a renewal, and my standards have risen significantly. Another friend then spoke up, posing 'why' questions that crushed my heart with their restlessness. I, too, feel restless and consumed by the enormous question of 'why' I’m being asked these things now, when all I did was say 'yes.' I didn’t seek this boy out; in fact, I initially resisted.

Now, I long to be completely loved, and I thought this might happen through him. For me, the attraction is so undeniable that—as my friend said—it’s unmistakable.

Then Hugh added, 'We go along with that unique way in which God calls us.' God is calling me through him, but maybe not for him. And then I cried, not out of sadness, but because I realized how high the stakes really are."

Julián Carrón – Good morning, everyone. What’s at stake here? When faced with an event like what’s happening to you, with all the signs you've described, and when something unfolds before your eyes that you never expected—something so unexpected that it reveals desires you didn’t even know you had—you ask yourself, "But is my heart truly fulfilled? Because nothing feels like enough." Do I understand the question correctly?

Yes.

Julián Carrón – So, I say this: when the heart cries out that nothing is enough, it’s proof that you're not being deceived! The fact that something happens to you, revealing all the expectations you didn't realize you had, and that “everything seems small and insignificant for the soul’s capacity,” as Leopardi says, confirms that the heart never fools you.

Recently, a friend told me about someone who, upon realizing this deep need in their heart, said, "Now that I’ve encountered faith, I feel more peaceful, calmer." But the friend telling me this exclaimed, "It was the opposite for me with Christianity!" It awakened all her expectations, just like it did for our other friend! If this doesn’t happen, sooner or later, we’ll experience what another friend told me recently: "I followed someone with all my heart, but then came the disappointment."

I bring this up because if we don’t seek help to understand the answer to this question, disappointment will come, whether we want it or not. So, during that conversation with the people I spoke to, I guided them on a path. I said: imagine Jesus, the only one who could fully confront this question without ever lowering the standard.

He stands before those who have come to listen to him, and he thinks, "Poor people, they can’t go back to the neighboring villages because it’s already evening." Then, he tells the disciples, "Sit them down and feed them," provoking them. But they respond, "How can we feed so many people?" At that point, Jesus addresses their need by multiplying the loaves.

They are astonished; they’ve never seen anything like it! Jesus met their need, and they were so moved by it that they sought him out the next day, determined to make him their king. It wasn’t that they didn’t realize he had met their hunger, but this is where everything hinges. What does Jesus do? Does he give in to their desire to make him king, or does he raise the standard? He tells them, "Friends, you’re seeking me not because you’ve seen a sign that points you further but because I’ve filled your stomachs." And what passion Jesus has for their destiny! Instead of mocking them, saying, "I’ve already answered your hunger," he knows it’s not enough to fulfill all their longing, and he tells them, "But man does not live by bread alone!"

He isn’t speaking abstractly; He’s responding to their real need because He knows that the miracle alone isn’t enough, and their hearts are not deceiving them! Even if He tried to mislead them, their hearts wouldn’t allow it! So either Jesus meets all the expectations of their hearts, or sooner or later, He will disappoint them, even Himself!

What does He do, then? He raises the bar and reminds them of what He had done: “See that you need bread that can truly satisfy your hunger.” They reply, “Yes, even our fathers ate bread,” and He responds, “But I assure you, it was my Father who gave you that bread! Don’t stop at that….” He challenges them deeply: “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you will never have the life that truly satisfies; it will never be enough for you!”

Every time I think of this Gospel passage (cf. Jn. 6:1-40), I get chills because Jesus was the only one—but the only one—capable of not making a mockery of people. He could have been satisfied with their recognition; it would have pleased them, but that would have been only the first step toward disappointment! Jesus took a great risk. What risk?

Exactly what we see happening: when He raises the bar, out of His passion for their destiny and knowing the depths of their hearts—which cannot be fooled, not even by Him—He says to them, “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you cannot be truly fulfilled.” And when He raises the bar, their reaction is, “No, this is insane, this is truly insane! How can He feed us?! How can He claim to meet the heart’s desires by raising the bar and challenging us like this?!”

And that’s where everything is decided because if such a proposal scandalizes us, look at it—it’s an unfathomable challenge! They couldn’t grasp it, so much so that they realized the enormity of what was at stake. “No, this is madness, let’s leave.” And they abandoned Him, leaving Him alone.

So when He raised the bar, only a few accepted the magnitude of the challenge. The issue lies in who is willing to accept all the desires of their heart because Jesus is only interested in those who do not lower this "bar" of the heart—those who continue to desire, especially when they have found an attraction: an answer that magnifies desire!

The answer isn't obvious because many left—only twelve remained. It's not that one response is as good as another. Each person must ask the question, or rather, answer Jesus’ question themselves: "Do you also want to leave?" (Jn. 6:67). The answer is not a given, even for the disciples. He doesn't assume it, not even with us this morning. He is asking us, "Do you want to leave too? Do you want to take on the challenge and test whether the heart is truly a catch or not?"

Because if you don't accept it—as the person I mentioned earlier told me—you will be disappointed! Sooner or later, it will happen because the heart can't be manipulated. I can’t reduce the need that constitutes it, even a little. Each person must ask themselves, "Is it reasonable to go along with this, as Peter did?" This is the challenge we all feel this morning. In response, because it’s beyond our own measure, because it seems too immense and too risky, we might say, "No, it's not possible."

Letting our own limits, our own image of what we think we can handle, prevail—because it feels like it's beyond our capacity. The heart’s measure is that it has "no measure": nothing is enough! So, when we face the challenges Jesus presents... What does this provoke in Peter? As we see in this chapter of The Religious Sense, the eighth chapter of the School of Community, Peter must reach into the "drawer" of his memory to see what remains of all his experiences with Jesus.

This question arises for Peter: "Do I think like the others who say He’s crazy, or have I seen something that allows me to respond differently from those who have left?" This provocation is the same for our friend: only if she is prompted to reflect on her experience, to see how He has already begun to answer her by continuously awakening in her desires she didn’t think she had, expectations she didn’t know existed—only then, if she has this in her heart, will she be able to say, "Only You have the words of eternal life." But not as a blind leap of faith, but because of what she has seen! Because she has seen that You have words that fill life! And in the face of such a significant challenge, like the one our friend now places before us by raising the bar, I become even more aware of the newness Your presence has brought into my life!

If Jesus behaves this way, it's because He also has to reckon with the hearts of His disciples. He can't adopt any strategy because He Himself is tested by how He responds to the heart’s expectations. And the more He raises the bar for that fullness of experience, the more the heart understands what it has been waiting for. Jesus can't deceive it because if He tries, the heart will find out. So, if we don’t want to be fooled or end up disappointed, the question is whether we are together to raise the bar higher and higher.

That is, to continually embrace the absolutely unpredictable ways in which the Mystery makes itself present and pushes us to go further. But I understand—this is only for the bold! Because otherwise, people become complacent and then blame Jesus for letting them down. No, He doesn’t deceive us because He knows the fabric of the heart He created in us. He made us with this heart precisely because He intends to go beyond all limits and fill us with a fullness we couldn’t have imagined!

And only those who trust Him will be able to see how He fills that heart, more and more! And in doing so, He reawakens within us an even greater desire for "more." But this is dizzying, and that’s why I say it’s only for the courageous. Each person must decide for themselves.

The role of Experience in Freedom

Yesterday, on a field trip, I met a friend who shared something with me, and I told her, "Say it tomorrow at the assembly!" She replied, "I will never speak in front of everyone." So, I said, "Then write it down." This is her question:

"Hi, I also listened to Giovanni Allevi during the night of the Sanremo Festival, and I immediately felt that he was expressing something deeply true for me too: there is something within the human spirit that always persists, despite everything. However, my greatest struggle, especially now, is with the everyday. That’s where I feel the most pain. In each moment, I sense I need something that I can’t quite define, but I know it’s there. I need to be saved."

Julián Carrón – But do you realize that if we go along with the way things unfold, it becomes the path that allows us to discover the answer? Allevi could have allowed himself to be determined by his reaction. Instead, he embraced an unpredictable way of engaging with reality, which was restored to his awareness as a gift!

Who could have imagined that the situation he’s facing would become a great opportunity to discover something profound: that there is something that remains forever? How did this happen? He started living each day, not by "floating" (you can float for a few moments, but you can’t spend two years staring at the ceiling…). He began each day ("because if not, it hurts") by accepting the way reality was provoking him.

This led him to see what he had encountered a million times before: how many sunsets, how many sunrises, all the people who worked at the hospital, the times he performed at the Konzerthaus in Vienna... but he had never grasped what his illness allowed him to grasp. I often ask: should we wait for a heart attack, or is there an alternative?

This is an education in how we view reality. Otherwise, we are forced to wait. Allevi used his situation, embracing an unpredictable way of thinking, to become aware. The question is whether we can discover our needs every day through what we experience. We don’t yet know where it will take us, but only by embracing it, as he did, can we uncover the answer. Otherwise, it remains an "already known" reality, but that is not enough for us.

As Giussani taught us, only those who fully engage with life can discover the answer. So, embrace the challenges of each day! Only if I feel my need every day will I not let this urgency fade away. So, what do we do in the face of our needs? What do I do every morning when confronted with this need?

If I were not faithful to all my needs, if I didn’t feel them deeply, this very need wouldn’t help push me back toward Him—to the One who responds to my need. If we don’t use everything, as Allevi did, to discover who He is, then He can’t respond to our need, and the need becomes a trap. But if we begin to see it as an opportunity to open ourselves to Him, we can give thanks, just as I give thanks every day that life is not easy for me—because if it were, I wouldn’t need to return to Him! Do you want a quiet life? Keep a quiet life.

Without this need, I could wake up in the morning, go through the usual grind, tick off my to-do list, and that’s it. But how can we not feel the urgency to return to Him in the face of this need? The Gospel clearly tells us, "I did not come for the healthy, but for the sick [i.e., for the needy]" (cf. Mt. 9:12). I understand why our friend says, "But I am in need! I don’t know how He will respond to this need, but I know I must return!" And you can’t reduce Him to a category. No, the need is for Him—to return to Him! To let Him in, to go through all the clutter—as Giussani calls it—of our thoughts, our anxieties, everything on our minds, and return.

And so, everything, as with Allevi, becomes an opportunity for this. Life is beautiful, not because it isn’t dramatic, but precisely because it is! Without this drama, I wouldn’t need to come back! I don’t know about you, but you see how many days can pass—when we don’t feel this urgency—without anything happening at the core, without needing anything. He is absent from life.

And when He is absent, what is life? Does this life satisfy you? A flat life, without drama, without anything special happening, without any cataclysms—yet a flat life is worse than a cataclysm! Is this what you want? Go ahead, but Jesus came for the needy. In fact, the only ones who truly grasped the value of His presence were the needy. Jesus calls them "Blessed." Blessed! Not wretched, not unfortunate—blessed are the poor!

"Blessed are you who hunger and thirst, for you alone can partake of what I bring!" (cf. Mt. 5:6).

Blessed—not unfortunate, as we often think—blessed! Do you want to share in this blessedness, or do you prefer total flatness, without hunger or thirst, simply because it’s less dramatic that way?

There isn’t a single scene in the Gospel that doesn’t provoke this question. Whatever passage we read, He, through His Presence and what’s happening, constantly challenges our lives in this way. The more we recognize our need, the more we are helped and called to pay attention. "But where can I find someone who answers?" As Demi Lovato sings in Anyone, "Lord, is there anyone?"

I need someone to listen. Have we encountered someone who listens to our needs? In every word and gesture, Jesus embodies the Presence of someone who cares for those needs. Everyone who has received this news must decide: Do I want to open myself to this possibility, which has appeared in history and I see in the faces of those who embrace it, or do I prefer a calm, flat existence?

Overcoming Habit to Live Fully.

You’ve already answered, but I’ll ask the question anyway. Drama is inevitable. In the sense that I’m realizing, now more than ever, the truth in Giussani’s words, “Freedom is adhesion.” First theme: the unexpected is our only hope. For someone like me, who’s used to organizing everything, I’ve always seen the unexpected as something of an inconvenience... like an accident. But no. There’s a point where the unexpected becomes hope.

For example, I love going on field trips, and today I was thinking, “Maybe it won’t rain, and we’ll go on a field trip.” But instead, Julián came. It’s beautiful when something unexpected like that happens! But when the unexpected doesn’t align with your plans, that’s when the real challenge comes. Yes, it’s true—I later saw He responded... but the drama of adhering in that moment... I think you’ve had moments where things didn’t match your plans as well, haven’t you?

Julián Carrón – That’s how it seems to me as well.

No one can take that away from you in the game of your freedom, which is dramatic because it asks you to adhere to something that, at first, isn’t what you want or what you had in mind. That’s the first point. The second issue is this: now more than ever, I wish—especially for the people I love—that they encounter what I’ve encountered. Yet, I still feel a bit of frustration because this is not in my control. I make plans, I invite them here and there, we go out to eat... but ultimately, the possibility for them to encounter the beauty we’ve experienced is in His hands. Do you know what I mean?

Julián Carrón – Of course! No one can indeed take away the drama of freedom because, in the end, what would we want, my friend? What would we desire? For it to be mechanical.

Eh, yes...

Julián Carrón – But I challenge you. Imagine it was mechanical—would you like that?

No.

Julián Carrón – At least ask yourself this question: if things happened the way your little mind tells you, it would feel more normal, less challenging. But as I once said to a cab driver, “Would you rather have your wife love you mechanically to avoid the unexpected, or would you prefer to be loved freely?”

What do you think? No response to your desire for love will ever fully satisfy you. If someone loves you out of pity, you’d say, “No, thank you,” right? It’s not enough for someone to say, “But I love you!” If that love isn’t free, it’s not enough. Not everything meets our expectations. In this sense, consider that God has the same desire as you: to be loved freely! If you eliminate freedom, the relationship loses its meaning for both of you. It would have cost God nothing—as I always say—to create another being like the others: fish, dogs, sparrows, stars in the sky... a perfect system, mechanically flawless, without contingencies, all “from God”!

But would that interest you? It would have cost God nothing to do that! But as Péguy says, “I sacrificed everything, says God, for this desire I have to be loved by free men, freely, gratuitously.” And since this is our nature, we too want to be loved freely and gratuitously.

That’s why He doesn’t force your response! He waits for your free adherence. The point is, if we start to see things differently, it’s not that I have to adhere, but thankfully, I can adhere freely! Thankfully, this morning, I can tell Him, just as I am, “Thank you! I love you!”

Me, freely! And not because of some mechanism that would make everything “perfect,” but would not correspond to who I am. I’m not interested in a mechanical exchange in my relationship with Him. I prefer to say to Him, even laboriously, even stumbling, even limping, but I want to say it!

Just as you long for your loved one to say, “I love you!”—today, not yesterday. Yesterday is already too old for today! That’s what a woman told me many years ago, “I know my husband loves me, but how I wish he would tell me!” So we understand that if love were mechanical, we would miss the best part of the relationship! Because we wouldn’t care. It’s good that things don’t happen exactly the way you have them in your head! Because if they did, it would be boring!

I sometimes say, “Whatever, now do as You wish...”

Julián Carrón – But not because you can’t oppose anything to what He does! Because then you’re just resigned: I can’t change anything... so I’ll make peace with it. But in that case, you don’t really enjoy it! I want you to take a step and enjoy each morning, saying to Him, freely, “What a joy it is to tell You, all fresh and new: I love You!”

Like a drop of water flowing from a spring, pure, clear, and new—not old, but new! How much you would love it if, when you see your loved one, they said, “How much I love you! What a surprise to love you right now!”

Otherwise, everything becomes flat, even if it works! You know very well the difference between someone saying, “Yes, of course, I love you...” mechanically and someone saying it with genuine surprise. We never miss the difference when someone truly means what they say and when the “woodworm” of routine has crept in. If that happens, it becomes habit! That’s the path to the death of a relationship. In fact, it’s already dying.

So, thinking about these things is good for us because instead of complaining, “How much longer do I have to adhere? Am I still in this situation after all these years?...” you have to ask yourself, would you prefer the routine? I challenge you to consider whether you are more satisfied with the habit of avoiding the unexpected. It’s better to face the challenge of the unexpected than to live through habitual repetitions that you no longer care about—that you’re even tired of. “Look, you’re saying this, but I don’t see it in your eyes.” If that’s the case, eternal life would be eternal boredom! So, it’s this freedom that makes everything beautiful.

Hello. I study Electronics at the Salesians in Sesto San Giovanni. Last night, I talked with a family friend—now also a friend of mine—who recently lost his wife.

I spoke with him because, during Mass, the young priest who was celebrating talked about the gaze of Christ, who looks at you without judgment. Before Him, you can be a poor man and a sinner, but you are still loved. I wanted to go to confession, but I couldn’t find anyone who made me feel comfortable. After hearing this, I felt a little moved, a little strengthened, so I went to confession.

I told the priest that I realize my girlfriend looks at me the way Christ looks at me—or rather, Christ looks at me through her. Even if I make mistakes, even if I am a poor man, I am still loved. But when I look at myself, I feel scandalized.

So, at dinner, I asked my friend, “If there’s a girl who looks at me like this, how can I not be afraid of losing her? How can I not be afraid that it won’t last forever?” Then I asked him, “But you—how can you not be angry that the woman of your life was taken away from you?”

As we kept talking, something else emerged, something that might be an even truer question, because my girlfriend hasn’t died... He told me, “You must try, in every way, to surrender yourself, together with your girlfriend, to what He has chosen for you. He already has His will for you.” But I can’t… I walk, and then at some point, I stop. My steps halt because I’m afraid there’s nothing beneath me. I’m so scared that surrendering to His will means losing my girlfriend. I don’t know if you understand what I mean.

Julián Carrón – Perfect, dearest! Great question! First of all, when you start to see how your girlfriend looks at you, and you feel the fear of losing her—what does this fear make you realize? What does become aware of this fear reveal about you?

That I care.

Julián Carrón – Exactly. You care. You’ve discovered that, to truly be yourself, to look at yourself without being scandalized, you need a gaze like your girlfriend’s. Because without that gaze, you wouldn’t be able to see yourself so clearly! There’s a song by Guccini, You Were Very Young, that says, “I am not when you are not there.”

You see, without your girlfriend, you’re not really yourself. You can’t look at yourself clearly, you don’t feel good about yourself, and you start measuring your worth. You’ve made a valuable connection: "If I need this girl to see myself well, then the fact that I might lose her—like my friend lost his wife—throws me into turmoil." I understand why you’re scared because the more we realize how important someone is to our lives, the more we don’t want to lose them, and we develop this overwhelming fear of loss. You ask your friend, "How can you not be angry that someone took your wife away? That you lost her?" And so, you see, if you don’t find an answer to that question, you can’t overcome the fear that one day, you too might lose your girlfriend. Do you understand?

It doesn’t answer the second question: I can’t abandon myself...

Julián Carrón – Exactly. The fear remains if we don’t find an answer to this question. Did you give yourself the girl? Do you get to keep her? No, she is given to you. You don’t possess her; it’s not within your power to provide yourself with this girl—just as you are given to yourself. So, there will always be this sword of Damocles hanging over your head: the possibility that you could lose the person who matters most to you, the one who helps you be yourself. You understand that when these kinds of questions arise… you can only address them by confronting life in its totality.

The fact that you listened yesterday to the story of your friend who lost his wife has posed a question to you, even at such a young age—a question you might have postponed to another time, maybe when you were 50, 60, or 70 years old. But no, you already feel the urgency to answer this question, my friend.

And that’s wonderful because now you have a task in life: to find how to become certain. In looking at your girlfriend and knowing you might lose her, what makes you certain that, even if it happens, you don’t truly lose her? You won’t lose what the Mystery has given you through her. But to get to that point (as you saw with your friend), you need a certainty that you have yet to achieve because you don’t yet have the experience your friend has. Are you interested in taking this path? Not just because you might lose her, but because maybe the Mystery will keep her by your side until you’re 90, and I don’t wish for her to be taken from you.

But I do wish that you can genuinely experience your relationship with her without being controlled by fear, because you are certain that there is Someone who will give her to you forever. Otherwise, the sword of Damocles will always loom, making you say, “What if I lose her?” It’s staggering to realize that one cannot love a person without confronting the problem of death! And here you are, at such a young age, already grappling with it.

We stand together to take a path that allows us to face everything, verifying that the One we have met enables us to stand before any mindset, even this one, with certainty in our eyes. If we don’t come to this certainty, we will live our whole lives determined by fear. Someone like St. Paul, who was spared nothing, eventually, after a journey of verification, could say, “I am persuaded [I am absolutely certain] that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither present nor future, nor any creature whatsoever will be able to separate me from the love of Christ” (cf. Rom. 8:38). Would you like to come to this certainty?

Yes.

Julián Carrón – Welcome to the club! We are here because we, too, want to be certain in the face of whatever may happen.

Otherwise, we are always living under the sword of Damocles, constantly determined by fear. The fact that you’ve discovered this at such a young age is a grace. A grace, man! So many people here haven’t realized it yet—not out of malice—but because if you haven’t let life shake you up, as you have, you can be here without the awareness that you’re giving us this morning! You’ve been given this gift, which you’ve shared with us, and we are grateful.

We are not here to dabble in questions or avoid them for the sake of a "still" life. We want, like you, to live with full awareness. I want to know if this gesture I’m part of answers life's most urgent questions! Otherwise, we are doomed to live dictated by fear. For this, we all thank you.

Hello.

Speak closer to the microphone.

Julián Carrón – Finally, try again until everyone hears you because everyone is curious to listen to your question.

During the vacation with Student Youth (high school students), on the last day, during a meeting, we were told that people are divided into two groups: those who are “used to” and those who are “in love.”

I don’t think I’m totally “used to,” but with the proposals that the adults make to us, like during the vacation—praise every morning, the Ray... Before the vacation, I hadn’t gone to Mass for a while, and I didn’t even go to confession, which I didn’t fully understand. I mean, I find myself very fixed on what the adults propose, but I tend to get used to the things they always ask us to do.

Maybe the first few times are nice, like Lauds: on the first day, I really liked it, but after a while... even the invitation to keep the notes... maybe I understand the value of these things a lot, and at first, I can see it clearly, but after a while, it starts to weigh on me, and I feel bad about that.

I would like to see the value in these things every time because if they are recommended to us, there must be a reason. I find myself very fixed. I didn’t bring this up because of the vacation; I’m just saying it because...

Julián Carrón – At least you have a place where you can say everything.

I also think of some of my professors who, when taking students on trips, have to see the same things repeatedly—though they are beautiful things.

Julián Carrón – Can I ask you a question?

Yes.

Julián Carrón – Before all this, would you like to get used to being loved?

Verification Through Everyday Life.

I used to think that habit was doing the same things repeatedly, which makes you trivialize the value of those things...

Julián Carrón – Perfect. The problem isn’t that things have to be different so you don’t get used to them. Like having a different boyfriend every day so you don’t get used to it... because then you wouldn’t build anything. The real question is, as you say, can you be in love without getting used to it?

Yes.

Julián Carrón – That’s the question. And how do you not get used to it? The discovery you need to make in your life is how to live a relationship that you care about—forget the Praises for now, forget everything—a relationship that truly matters to you, where no one has to tell you, "Do this, do that."

A relationship that truly matters because you are in love. Look, and try to find out what makes it feel new to you every day so that you don’t get used to it. This is your challenge, just like it is mine. When you find someone who loves you, the question won’t be about what others tell you to do, but rather your own: "How do I avoid looking at this relationship with habit?" Do you understand?

Yes, I believe so.

Julián Carrón – You believe, but you have yet to discover how living “in love” doesn’t turn into being “used to.” So, first of all, leave this question open because I can’t give you a mechanical answer—you wouldn’t understand it, because you have to discover it for yourself! It would help if you found out what makes what you do every day feel new.

You have to go to school, wake up in the morning, deal with life's challenges, and live with yourself—and you can either be angry or amazed that you’re alive. So, how do we live in such a way that we’re not "used to" what happens every day, but live it "in love"? The first thing to understand is the difference between being “used to” and being “in love.” What’s your experience of one versus the other?

You say, "I don’t think I’ve fully gotten used to it yet, but I do have a tendency to get used to it." Who among us doesn’t have that? So, it’s not enough to say, "I don’t want to get used to it." That alone won’t prevent the habit from forming. That’s why Giussani—a genius in the human heart—says, "Where do we see the possibility of experiencing everything as a surprise?" If I were to ask you, "Where have you seen, in reality, someone who is constantly surprised by everything?" Have you ever seen anyone like that, living in constant surprise?

Yes, I think so.

Julián Carrón – Where?

At the Triduum this year. (*)

Julián Carrón – Even before that. Let’s go back to the Triduum later. Where do you see that everything that happens is a surprise, like it is for a person in love? Everything becomes part of an event when you’re in love—if you’ve experienced this. Everything—the fact that they call you, that they remember you, that they give you a gift, even the smallest gesture—makes you realize that nothing is taken for granted!

There’s something happening now, bubbling up like water from a spring—it’s not a habit, and you are amazed! Where is this most clearly seen? In children. If you look at children, they are fully engaged with whatever is in front of them. But then what happens? How is it that we, who are born this way, full of curiosity and attention, eventually get used to things?

We come into the world with this capacity to be amazed by everything, but over time, as you’ve noticed, it fades due to the tendency toward habit. So what happens next?

This is where we come into the picture. If you don’t realize the nature of the problem, you might say, “Because it’s so easy for a child to be amazed, that feeling will last over time. What amazes me now will continue to amaze me, just like it does for a child.”

But that’s not the case... For example, you move your arm perfectly, but what would happen if, by chance, you could no longer move it—not because of an injury, but just from not using it? I remember once I had a cast put on my arm because I’d fallen, and it wasn’t clear from the x-ray if the scaphoid was fractured, so they put a cast on.

It turned out there was no fracture, but I had to keep my arm immobilized for 15 days. I still remember that when they took off the cast, without thinking, I tried to roll down the car window (this was before electric windows), and I saw stars from the pain. There hadn’t been a fracture, but because I hadn’t used my arm, I felt intense pain. Life is like that in many ways: if I don’t use certain limbs—not because they’re injured, but simply because I don’t use them—they atrophy, and I can’t move them.

I had to go through physiotherapy. Similarly, if you don’t realize that it’s not enough to “do nothing” to stay curious, just as it’s not enough to “do nothing” to avoid getting used to things—you have to actively do something!

You need to move; you have to exercise to stay fit! Otherwise, you become used to things, and it’s like a paralysis of your spirit. What is a habit? It’s like a paralysis—things no longer speak to you. So, just as you have to train your body, you have to train yourself not to get used to being in love. And that’s a path—it’s a path you can’t take for granted.

And what is that path? While explaining The Religious Sense at Catholic University, Giussani said, “Imagine opening your eyes right now, with the consciousness you have now, and the first thing you see is Mont Blanc. What would your reaction be if you saw Mont Blanc for the first time?”

Awe.

Julián Carrón – Astonishment. How many times have you been amazed to see it these days? Who was amazed to wake up this morning? Astonishment has become a habit. How many sunrises and sunsets has Allevi seen?

It took an illness to dislodge that habit, to begin discovering a sunrise and sunset anew—and a hospital room is not the best place for that.

If we wake up every morning still caught in sleep and don’t become aware, we also get used to the fact that we are alive—not because it’s taken for granted, but because others didn’t wake up this morning.

I was saying that one day, after a lecture on these topics at Catholic University, a young man came up to me and said, “Look, what you talked about happened to me.” I asked him, “How did it happen to you? Did you wake up now and see reality for the first time?” He replied, “Yes, because I had a car accident. I was in a coma for months, and then I woke up with the consciousness I have now, at the age I am now!” He was a few years older than you because he was already in college.

“I woke up and began to see everything as if for the first time. I couldn’t take anything for granted... And I began to see everything with such clarity: faces, colors, the leaves on the trees, everything was new!” It was what he had always seen before but had gotten used to. It took waking up from a coma to see it as new again!

He continued, “I lived like that for weeks. But today, hearing the lecture, I realized that I’m starting to get used to things again.” It had happened to him—he was amazed by reality for weeks, as if he had been born again with the consciousness of a young man.

“But now I realize that astonishment is fading.” I told him, “You see, a miracle happened to you, but even the miracle isn’t enough, because eventually, everything fades.” That’s why Giussani says, “Expect a path, not a miracle.”

You need a path that allows you to train yourself not to get used to things, to look at your boyfriend with the same amazement as on the first day. Otherwise, at some point, you’ll get used to it, fall out of love, and take things for granted, “I love you.” “Oh, I already know...” “No, you don’t understand anything! It’s not taken for granted that I say, ‘I love you.’ It’s new, right now, new!”

You’re right. If we don’t consistently train, everything becomes heavy after a while. Like when you exercise regularly—if you stop, you lose your form. What’s the only way to get back in shape? Keep training. What’s the only way to prevent habit from taking over? To surprise yourself. But this is also entrusted to your freedom, because you’re not a dog. Mechanically, a dog knows that a stimulus corresponds to a response. We don’t; we have to consciously walk this path.

If not, you will eventually become one of the many “accustomed” people in the world. Only if you understand this will you begin to realize how much it’s worth making this journey—a journey of learning to see reality as if it were happening now before your eyes, as something new. And how do you walk this path?

When you wake up in the morning, don’t start with routine as if nothing is happening. If you don’t stop, you miss the best of each morning! And if you’re in love and you don’t remember your boyfriend first thing in the morning, you miss the best, right? Imagine starting the day without remembering him—that would be a sad morning, right? But even worse would be taking him for granted. If you don’t urgently think of him when you wake up, if you get used to him, if... because if something doesn’t happen now, everything becomes flat. And so, from “in love,” you become “accustomed.” The challenge of verification is yours.

Thank you.

I wanted to share an episode because it struck me when you talked about "raising the bar." What really amazed me was its simplicity. A few months ago, I was in a public place and saw a friend being warmly and appreciatively embraced by someone I respect. I went home, and I was struck by the realization that I was envious; I struggled to sleep because I wanted that embrace!

Julián Carrón – Do you see how we notice the difference? It doesn’t take much. Just seeing someone else receive a hug with such esteem, and immediately we ask, “But me, how long has it been since I felt hugged with that kind of esteem?” That’s habit, right? Habit! So, what happened?

I struggled to sleep, as if I were telling myself, “But no, forget it, you’re 49 years old, still with these feelings...” because that’s what we end up telling ourselves. But the more I told myself that, the more it stung. At one point, I thought, “But if there were a friend here, what would he say to me?”

Then this came to mind: “How many times has something you wanted failed you? And how many times have you found your heart in your throat from an unwanted embrace?” Which means, “But what is the nature of this desire for preference, for being embraced?” And that gave me peace. What amazed me was what happened the next day: the question I had asked myself and the deepening of that desire made me experience what a friend of mine, whom I’ve seen change so much over the past year, told me about himself: “In the face of all the difficulties I’ve had, it’s as if my desire has required me, each time, to expand my reason.”

I live in Milan and work in Lecco, and that morning, starting from that episode, I felt like an empty amphora at a spring. When I reached Capriano and saw the mountains opening to the Grigna, I said, “They might not be here, and yet they are. Just like me: I might not be here, and yet I am.” And for the first time, I felt like I wasn’t alone in the car. Then, I had a spectacular lunch with a very dear friend. It struck me because, from such a simple episode, I received unimaginable richness in return. The question I wanted to ask is: why do we so often underestimate our own humanity? So many times we cover up these questions and say, “But no, that’s not it, look at what’s over there...” But instead, we have to go through this.

Julián Carrón – We have to go through it. Because without our human experience, we don’t fully engage with what happens! You can stand in front of the mountains, but what makes the difference?

It’s your awareness that they might not be there, and yet they are. That’s what we need to rediscover. When someone starts to realize this, everything begins to speak to them differently!

That’s why Giussani says that if I’m not present, if I don’t experience things with this self-awareness, I lose them even while they’re happening. Look at how everything began to speak to you because you allowed that hug to impact you.

The Mystery gave you the gift of seeing an embrace full of appreciation, which awakened you. It was Him saying to you, “Look how present I am before you (in the mountains, in friends…). And where are you?” He awakened you through that simple detail. For Allevi, the whole of reality was restored as a gift in a certain way. For you, He didn’t send an accident or illness—no, He gave you the gift of being astonished by witnessing an embrace filled with esteem, an embrace that made you envious and kept you awake! If we block that feeling and say, “These are just my petty thoughts! I’m 40 years old...” No!

It’s a good thing you’re 40, but even at 70, 80, or 90! Because otherwise, at any age, you won’t be able to see things with the same sense of wonder that you began to rediscover. Even the mountains.

The mountains don’t marvel at their own beauty—only you marvel at their beauty. Christ came so we could enjoy everything like that! Because He looked at everything with that same wonder. He looked at the lilies of the field and didn’t take them for granted! He didn’t take even a hair on our heads for granted. This is what Jesus wanted to introduce us to: a way of looking at reality that, once experienced, makes you understand the Gospel more deeply. Otherwise, they’re just phrases... “Jesus was just a bit different... because He was God...”

No, no! He was someone who lived with this kind of awareness. And at a certain moment, He can give it to someone by grace, just as it happened to you, allowing you to start looking at reality like that!

Think of how much we miss when life becomes taken for granted: we don’t deny it, we don’t fight against it, but, everything is taken for granted. This is habit, and it’s the beginning of the loss of wonder. So, when we reach a certain age, we’re already flatlining, saying, “But how, at 40...” No! I hope we can make it to 90 with that same wonder! Otherwise, we might as well leave sooner because we’re already dead—living dead.

Something that comes first.

So, I’m going to ask a somewhat risky question. Recently, we’ve been invited to reflect on how to communicate what we have encountered.

Let me share an episode. A few days ago, a very dear friend of mine, who is not part of the movement and went to university with me, wrote to tell me that his dad had died. We were there, and at one point, his little boy was feeling a bit sad, so I asked him, “What’s the matter? How are you?” And he replied, “I miss Grandpa so much. I miss him so much. Now that he’s gone, I’m very sad.”

Faced with this response, I was shocked, and it reminded me of something that had happened to me a few weeks earlier when a friend of ours died—specifically, the wife of a friend who is here with us today. On the day she died, we went to her house. We were standing on the balcony, and her husband, their family, and friends all had expressions of unbelievable gladness.

I mean, amidst the crying and the obvious grief, they truly had faces of... joy. They were saying incredible things—things filled with unbelievable gladness—so incredible that I can’t even repeat them now. When I left their house, I immediately thanked the person who had invited me, and then I said to myself, “How envious I am! How envious I am to have that kind of gladness.” To say that in front of someone who had just become a widower or lost a mother—it was something otherworldly. I genuinely said, “Lord, today You have shown Yourself again.”

Then, when the child I mentioned earlier expressed his sadness, even knowing that he wasn’t used to hearing such things, I couldn’t help but say to him, “Look, Grandpa is in Heaven. He’s now with Jesus, whom he loved so much, and one day, we will go to see him too. If you want, we can say a prayer.”

We went to where the casket was and said a prayer. I’m telling you this in relation to the communication of what we’ve encountered. Reflecting on your latest book and also on what you said today, you place so much emphasis on humanity, the heart, and desire.

So, I could have just said, “I’m with you. I understand your desire.” But it really felt like all of Heaven was saying to me... I would have betrayed what I had seen if I hadn’t made that explicit. And so, I ask you about the theme of communication, especially in your experience as...

Julián Carrón – I understand. But many times, your questions are already answered in your experience. When you went to visit a friend whose wife passed away, and you saw his family and friends, how was it communicated to you in such a way that it became persuasive?

Communication happens when it becomes persuasive. How did it happen for you? You saw something happen right before your eyes, and you felt envious of it. So tell me, when do you experience something being communicated to you as just a phrase, and when do you experience it as an event? You can read a book about love, or you can fall in love.

How do you communicate the meaning of falling in love more effectively—by reading a book or by actually falling in love? It’s not like reading one lecture after another will cause someone to fall in love. You’d become a billionaire if you could make lessons that, for those who read them, would turn into an event—because that’s what everyone wants. But that happens when and how it happens.

So how do you communicate? The Mystery has created the simplest mode: to help us understand something, it makes it happen. And we see this—we don’t make it up or convince ourselves. When you have to explain that something has been communicated to you in a persuasive way, you give examples and say where it happened to you.

So, your question is already answered by your experience. You can respond to anyone who asks, “Look, this happens to you, and I’m happy for you. But for me, something else happens.” Each person has to verify for themselves the image they have of communication. What can you say? What happened to you? It’s like someone who’s in love saying, “I’m in love.”

Another person might say, “No, I need more—I need to read a book about love or take a class on love.” Well, I’m happy for them! They can verify that for themselves.

Because then, you give the other person every opportunity to explore things on their own, without having to argue about it. Giussani says that people create an image of things, and they face life connected to that image, with their own working hypothesis.

One person faces it with one hypothesis, another person with a different one. Let’s not argue—verify it. See if, when you communicate something to someone else, like what happened with your friend, it’s more effective to show him that it happened to you, through your experience, or by repeating phrases that are painted on a wall. How do you see it for yourself? In this historical and cultural moment, everyone thinks differently.

That’s fine, and I’m a fan of that! Because each person is forced—not to go to whoever tells them A, or whoever tells them B, or C—but to experience and verify for themselves. In this multicultural age, where things aren’t as obvious as they once were, everyone must verify their own experience. But I’m rooting for each person’s freedom! I’m happy that you have this hypothesis—verify it, and then tell me about it.

In this way, each person will discover, through experience, how something communicates itself enthusiastically and takes hold of them! When something happens right in front of your eyes, as we’ve seen, it grabs you. If it doesn’t grab you, then it didn’t happen to you—you didn’t “get” the communication that touches the core of your being! And it’s obvious, because nothing happens. I don’t insist on heart and humanity because I want to—it’s just that without your humanity, you can’t verify whether what someone is telling you reaches your gut! Stones don’t get surprised by the beauty of mountains!

To understand the difference when something happens to you, you need your humanity. You feel envy—stones don’t! It’s not your humanity that generates that amazement, but your humanity makes you aware of what amazes you! It makes you aware when something communicated to you reaches you!

When someone falls in love, they realize it—not because they generated the feeling of falling in love with their heart or their humanity. No, but their heart and humanity make them aware that a presence has occurred that leaves them no longer indifferent. The heart doesn’t create the event.

The heart is what notices that an event has happened! Humanity is what intercepts that you felt envy! It intercepts when something “hits” you. And what is the test? Without your humanity, you become more and more like a stone—you no longer see yourself come alive. Even if miracles happen, you won’t notice them. It’s your humanity that picks it up.

That’s why Jesus says, “Blessed are they.” Blessed are those who are like children because children intercept everything immediately—they don’t have filters! Blessed are those who hunger and thirst because they’re better able to intercept. The needy! And all of this doesn’t happen to stones—it happens to those who have humanity! Otherwise, what are we talking about? We’d be talking about something far removed from our humanity. And what’s the point of that? It wouldn’t interest you at all.

And if you’re not interested, communication doesn’t “reach” you! When does it “reach” you? What part of you intercepts it? Your humanity. When the friend earlier saw someone else receive a hug, who noticed the uniqueness of that hug? The rock? The tree next to him? The microphone? No, he did so much so that he couldn’t sleep! He began to see things with wonder, and everything started to speak to him. But if he hadn’t seen it and noticed it, that unique embrace wouldn’t have communicated anything to him.

So, we mustn’t be afraid of any phrase—we must verify the truth of each words: what it means and where it surprises us. Then, we shared with each other what happened to us: “This is how communication became clear to me... What about you? How did it become clear to you?” And you can see if what people tell you shines in their eyes, if they’ve been touched by something, or if there’s another way. Is that clear?

4 J. Carrón, C. Taylor, R. Williams, Inhabiting Our Time: Living Without Fear in the Age of Uncertainty, edited by A. Gerolin, BUR Rizzoli, Milan 2024.

I was going to ask more, but after everything you’ve said, I’ll say this: the theme is freedom. The concept of freedom among us has been making people “jump” lately, which often gets stuck in so many speeches and discussions... You said it yourself: habit.

In my opinion, it’s a form of habit. But it seems to me that even when we go along with what happens, with what the Mystery does, if we don’t ultimately reach the point of saying, “Yes, I love You”—like Peter said at the end of his journey, when Jesus promised to free him from his denial—if we don’t get to say “yes,” to say “You,” to say, “Yes, I love You, I recognize You,” beyond the embrace I envy, beyond the signs... If I don’t get there, I’m not truly free. And we won’t even be free with each other in our conversations...

Julián Carrón – Why? Why are you not free if you don't get there? You said something right, but the problem is that you need to understand why.

I also need to love freely. If I’m not ultimately caught by this Presence... because the sign alone is not enough for me. I need to reach the Presence.

Julián Carrón – Why? Why do you need to reach the Presence? What does this have to do with freedom? Did you cover this chapter in School of Community?

No, I didn’t quite understand. Could you repeat that?

Julián Carrón – Why do you need to ultimately reach the Presence? And I ask, what does this have to do with freedom? Why do you need to get there in order to be free? You see how we’re doing School of Community without really doing it? I’ll leave that question open.

Because of correspondence... because it corresponds.

Julián Carrón – What does that mean? What does correspondence have to do with freedom? Come on, you should be able to explain this!

If the heart is made for this, when something corresponds, you naturally want to move toward it.

Julián Carrón – Okay, I understand wanting to move toward it, but what I’d like to make clear is why you brought up the issue of freedom. We can’t listen to someone say one thing and then jump to something else without trying to understand the connection between what’s being said and freedom.

You used the word “correspondence.” Why do you think correspondence has anything to do with freedom? Otherwise, one day we talk about “correspondence,” the next day about “freedom,” and another day about “astonishment”—as if it’s a word circus without seeing the connections! What’s the connection? What’s the link? This is what I want to understand: what’s the connection between correspondence—the word you used—and freedom?

Freedom as a Path to Fullness

Freedom is moving toward what corresponds to you. Because freedom is adherence to what corresponds.

Yes, but you still have to move, let’s say.

Julián Carrón – Now that we are working on the eighth chapter, it’s essential to understand this because everything hinges on answering the question of freedom.

In today’s world, we will only be able to withstand what we face if we are free truly. Because many choose otherwise. But are we fools standing here telling ourselves this, or do we really have an adequate reason to live as we do? To be free from whatever others may think or say?

If we don’t understand the connections, freedom becomes a rare commodity because in order to resist all the external pressures, we need to live with such fullness that we are free.

That’s why Giussani says in the School of Community, “Experience is first described by its corresponding adjective (...). To understand what freedom is, we must start from the experience of feeling free.” Before membership, there is an event! First, you are surprised by love, and then you decide whether to adhere or not. Because one adheres if something has happened to them that they don’t want to lose!

But the first issue is not adherence! There is something that comes before adherence—the event, the correspondence. Just because it corresponds to me, I don’t want to lose it, just as—like our friend said earlier—“I don’t want to lose the look my girlfriend gives me. I want it to last forever, and I’m afraid of losing it.” So, we are only free if we first have the experience of fullness, of the satisfaction of our desire.

That’s what makes us free. If it’s not a present experience, sooner or later, we’ll seek satisfaction elsewhere. Do you understand? Elsewhere, willingly or unwillingly, because the heart cannot be "tamed," and we don’t control all the needs that make up who we are.

So: either we find something that corresponds so deeply that it makes us free from everything—free from all the “mean reds,” from any temptation—or we may even fail, but recover quickly because we realize we’ve strayed. Otherwise, our faith and experience have an expiration date, because the heart does not give up on its desire for wholeness.

Either we experience what freedom truly is in our lives, in our world, or we will look for fulfillment elsewhere. Because inevitably, when something disappoints us, we’ll search for something else. Therefore, the verification of faith is crucial, to see if the experience we have truly makes us free. Freedom is not simply the ability to choose or adhere—it’s the result of being satisfied. And that’s why you then have every reason to adhere! And the more you adhere, the more you say, “What a blessing! What a gift! What grace!”

But we don’t adhere because of sheer willpower, because we’ve decided to, or through some muscular effort. We adhere because we don’t want to lose it! Otherwise, our faith has an expiration date. This is non-negotiable because not everything corresponds.

It’s easy to see how habit and disinterest take over when we don’t find what corresponds to us, and we begin to participate without really being present! We keep going through the motions, but we aren’t surprised by anything that happens because we’re not truly present in what’s happening.

That's why, here, we put everything on the line. Because this is what life is about. So, freedom is a theme that, even when going on vacation, everyone must continually compare what Giussani says with their own experience. Any vacation or image of a vacation is an opportunity for verification. Otherwise, we’re just wasting our time, even on vacation.

Translated and edited by Epochal Change Digital Cultural Center.
Notes and transcript not reviewed by the author.

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