Unmasking Evil Beyond The Surface

Julián Carrón | Claudio Burgio - The following article gathers insights from the "Three Doors on the Night" meeting held on November 6 at the Oscar Theater in Milan. Edited by epochalchange.org staff, the content was transcribed from the original audio and reworked into a question-and-answer format, creating an imaginary dialogue with Fr. Claudio Burgio and Fr. Julián Carrón. The goal is to address the problem of Evil while keeping the evening's interventions intact.

In this question-and-answer version, unrevised by the authors, the theme of Evil and the violent acts of seemingly "normal" people with no obvious disorders are explored. The text raises questions about the absence of answers from theology, science, and philosophy and invites new questions to formulate a deeper understanding of the nature of Evil.

Question - Today, we face a complex reality, with young people increasingly distanced from the meaning of life and work. Recent dramatic events - motiveless murders, broken families, and mental distress - make us wonder if these tragedies are just personal "imbalances" or if they affect us all. As a privileged witness, Fr. Claudio will help us explore this question and better understand what is happening at the heart of our society.

How do you see young people's situation and sense of life today in light of recent dramatic events and this disconnect between work and meaning?

Claudio Burgio - Yes, I am that priest who, when faced with many uncomfortable questions, questions himself and remains silent. And maybe he has no answers, at least initially. Usually, we have this way of reacting in front of what upsets us and that we cannot immediately explain: we immediately look for the culprits and a quick explanation that, in some way, reassures us.

For example, in front of the triple murder committed by the boy in Paderno Dugnano, it is clear that we are all upset; the community is upset. Many parents have questioned me because their children's distress is already being read in a deadly key, as it might have been for this boy. Therefore, it isn't easy to give immediate answers, and perhaps this is not even the right way.

Question—What are the limits of sociological and psychological explanations in the face of the deep discomfort that affects adolescents? How can we listen to this discomfort more deeply as a stranger who stands beside and accompanies us on the path to understanding?

Claudio Burgio - Back then, so many sociological and psychological explanations were too immediate and too hasty, even though they may touch on some aspects of the matter. However, there is no doubt that this deep discomfort, which especially affects the adolescent world, must first be listened to in-depth. It is a bit like that stranger who, on the road to Emmaus, stands beside these two disciples who have sad faces, are disappointed, have lost their sense of being, and who, therefore, go down to the plain, to the underworld, we might say.

This stranger approaches, first of all, with a discreet attitude. Here, the silence is not passive or resigned; it is the silence of one who, in some way, enters into the intimacy of the people he meets.

And above all, it is the silence of those who accept that encounter, however difficult or paradoxical. I, too, have happened in recent months to be next to these boys because many young people arrive at Beccaria who commit property crimes, but never before have there been so many, especially Italian boys from "good families," who come for grave crimes, such as murders or attempted murders that are seemingly inexplicable.

Therefore, it is not important to find the perpetrators right away. There are those who have even managed to blame the parents of this boy who, poor guys, besides being victims, also have to bear this guilt. So much has been said, even that grandparents should not be around him, affirmed by competent people. There is, in short, a desire to conceal the pain because these facts shock and are not immediately addressable. So I try to stand by these kids daily, temporarily putting aside all judgment, even if it is difficult.

Question - Why is it important to put crime aside and walk alongside these kids? How can interviews and gestures like the gift of their work reveal their depth and discomfort?

Claudio Burgio:" It is essential, fundamental, I would say. To put the offense and the Evil they have committed in brackets, try to walk beside them. And you do that through interviews, the deeper and the shallower, in various ways. For example, one of these guys gave me a gift; when they are in prison, especially in solitary confinement, they don't have much opportunity to do much, so we make them use clay. He gave me a miniature work of his, which is disturbing; however, it has a crazy depth. To describe it, it's a kind of good luck horn, which at one point is shattered at the top, with a black wound. The tip of this amulet is encapsulated inside an all-black cube.

There, one could dismiss it by saying, "He's crazy, he did a crazy thing," and end up like that. Instead, an opportunity for dialogue arises even in these small, incredible situations, even in such a gift. The pedagogy of Jesus, of that stranger on the road to Emmaus, is the pedagogy of questioning. So, "What do you say to each other as you walk?" And for me, it was, "What does this beautiful gift you gave me represent? What does this horn represent?" And he answered, "It is my fortune that is slightly broken, cracked going into the cube, which is the prison."

And here, I don't come out anymore. Do you see that it doesn't stand? Then, it would help to have an egg underneath to support the cube. Tell me who the egg is: it's my family. There are some exciting things. And anyway, you understand that you have to listen. And what can I tell you after so many years of listening, particularly these last few months? The paradigm has changed.

These kids are bewildered and in an identity crisis because the world, culture, and era have changed. And so everything we try to convey does not resonate with them as something familiar or knowable, as something in which they can find themselves: our proposals, our values, everything we try to convey does not have the same registers for them. I don't know how to say it; they are not perceptible.

Question - How can we interpret the sense of bewilderment and emptiness of identity that leads young people to say, "I don't know why I did it"?

Claudio Burgio - In this bewilderment, in this emptiness of identity, I am not surprised that they tell you, "I don't know why I did it." Now, then the investigation will take its course, and the explanations will be more and more detailed. However, in this "I don't know"... well, except that I'm reminded of Montale a lot, there is this "I don't know what to say." I don't know what worlds I can inhabit; I can only tell you what I am not, what I don't believe, but I don't know who I am.

Unfortunately, this is kind of what I notice. The crisis is deep. Without wanting to use overly pessimistic tones, the crisis is indeed deep. So the question becomes mine, and I ask myself, with my education, experience, culture, and spirituality, how do I deal with this emptiness? How do I stand in front of it? Like the stranger facing the sad face of those two disciples?

It is necessary to stop and scrutinize. The question reflects on us: who are we? First, to convey to someone the beauty of life, its meaning, and significance, I have to figure out what meaning I give to what I live by standing in front of them, holding out my hand, knowing that that hand has killed them.

You notice these aspects, and you have to be able to put yourself on a new, unprecedented path. You don't have ready answers; you don't have formulas. And maybe this is also the grace, which I call the kairos, which is the opportune time to search together with them for the why, the why of the crime, and the why of life, the meaning we attach to life. Here, this is a journey still to be rediscovered.

Question - Fr. Julian, you have always been very insistent on not taking the meaning of the word "I" for granted... what does this malaise consist of? Is it enough today to define it as "imbalance" or "discomfort"? Or is there something that affects all of us, something that even I cannot take for granted?

Julián Carrón - It seems to me that your question is very pertinent because, as Don Claudio said earlier, it calls up each of us. When we use the word "I," what resonance does it have in us? This is the fundamental problem in understanding the depth of another's discomfort or difficulty. Until we can perceive the depth of the malaise, we use words that we do not know how to define exactly; each person may ascribe to them a different intensity or depth. But the issue is that, at least for me, it often happens that I notice, while talking to another, whether the other person is grasping what you are saying to them.

I often give this example: if a person is in a moment of difficulty, crisis, darkness, or malaise, and he is looking for help, he doesn't go and confide in the first person on the street. He identifies someone through whom he can better understand himself, even if he does not have the answers. After that, he looks for an appropriate and competent person, someone with whom he can open up confidently and who can understand. So many times, a person starts talking, then stops and asks, "Do you understand me?" And you realize that you don't feel understood even if the other person says yes. To be understood, you don't need special educational techniques or specific preparations; you need the other person to have an experience that allows them to tune into the depth of what I am saying or what the other person is saying to me.

Question - How can we grasp the depth of young people's discomfort?

Julián Carrón - - So many times, I realize that if we are not careful about how we stand in front of the other, we risk not grasping. If others see that we live in a certain way... Let's take a young person in a family or an educational or social environment of any kind who is experiencing hardship: I tell you that people often do not understand the depth of the drama they are experiencing. They don't open their mouths and then explode in some way because they can't find someone with whom they feel that their drama is being intercepted.

This is a problem that affects all of us. By living every day, by how we are together, by how we talk, and by how we look at reality, we are saying who we are. We are offering (or not) the possibility of creating a space where the other person can feel welcomed and find the space to express himself. Otherwise, one does not open one's mouth. And this is not only about extreme cases. When we wonder how it is possible that some families do not grasp their children's discomfort, we need to remember that there is often no authentic and deep relationship in the family. Sometimes, we take it for granted that by meeting all material needs, we have met everything but do not grasp the inner drama of the other.

Question - What is the "indispensable" element that seems to be missing in the lives of some young people, even when they possess the necessary and extra?

Julián Carrón - I remember a sentence I read years ago, said by a girl who committed suicide in Rome: "I had in life the necessary and the superfluous, but not the indispensable." And so we all remain silent in the face of such a statement. Mind you, it's not that there are visible problems: she has received everything, the necessary and even the extra. But when the time of difficulty comes, of the changes in awareness typical of adolescence or crises in the path of history, who can grasp this depth of the other? This happens in the home, in schools, in groups.

I remember a phrase that said, "We can insist on the relationship with the other, but if the other cannot enter into the relationship, he or she is left alone in the end." It amazes me to hear artists like Demi Lovato say, "I try to speak with my piano, with my guitar, with my imagination. I've tried and tried, but no one listens to me." What kind of experience must a person have had to express such a need after trying to talk to what they had close to them without finding a listening ear?

The formula you used, no... What is this "mystery of our being" of which Leopardi speaks? We can often say a word like "bottle" without meaning anything profound, or it can have the density of an experience. However, this is not a solved issue; on the contrary, it must be addressed often. So often, any attempt to live on a deeper level is blocked, or kids need help finding someone they can open up to. This is a problem that affects us all.

These are not isolated cases: it is a time when we become aware of what is happening, and often the alarm is only raised when a catastrophe occurs. But in the everydayness of this superficiality, what kind of relationship do we generate with each other? It amazes me that, at the same time, we constantly grow in the perception of an irreducibility of the other, a sign that man is not enough of the indispensable. As an Oscar-winning song said last year, human beings are so much more, and the need to live is not limited to floating.

When someone asks, "Why was I created?" we do not simply move from surviving to such a profound question. These are signs of a mystery, a density that does not belong only to philosophers or bishops but emerges in the most ordinary people in moments that reveal the mysteriousness of life. If we do not become aware of this, we do not understand the nature of the emptiness we were discussing because it seems that anything can fill it. However, everyone has to look at this emptiness within himself, which is why it affects us all.

Question- How can we distinguish between "filling the time" and "filling the void"? Why, despite the success and presence of what is necessary and superfluous, do some people continue to feel an emptiness that seems to prevail?

Julián Carrón - To see if I need anything to survive, to have an authentic relationship with reality and myself so that life can be filled. Very ordinary people, like anyone, can feel this way. He says, "I fill the time, but not the void." Like Marracash, who is saying something of rare depth, I don't know how often you hear something like that in everyday life. A person who expresses these thoughts, regardless of how we have to relate, is saying something important. He is talking about someone who has achieved great success and solved the problem of the necessary and even the extra, someone with a successful career behind him. But all this, which also fills the time, is not enough in the face of emptiness. It is the emptiness that prevails. It surprises me when someone like Cormac McCarthy says, "People are dying of boredom,"because the superfluous is insufficient.

And he says this may even have something contagious about it. There are mornings when I wake up, and the world seems to me to be gray in a way that wasn't so obvious before. I don't know if it is because of this mysteriousness, because of these phenomena that we are experiencing, and it is telling us something. We can't grasp what is happening, and the beauty of your introductions is that you have grasped how none of the partial solutions suffice and how all of these solutions don't adequately answer certain phenomena.

They call us to an even closer look to see if we can understand what is happening because otherwise, we could be there, but the other person would still feel as alone as a dog.

It is not enough to be there for the other; when one goes through times of difficulty, darkness, or just normal life, without going to extreme situations, one does not find companions on that level. This is a reminder for each of us: what is living, and what is its meaning? Life often cuts us off at the knees every day, and we feel it is unbearable. So what do we lack to live it? Only if one can find what he needs to live can he answer this question.

I would not know how to answer if I had not encountered what I have encountered in my life or had yet to be introduced to a way of experiencing reality with a depth that reaches into mystery.

I tell you, I have been a priest all my life, and I couldn't stand it. I don't know how you do it, and I don't do it because I have to, because it's my job, but because I really couldn't stand myself. That is why I can fully understand that what is missing is something we thought was already solved. We believed the mystery problem was overcome, even by secularization and everything else, as if we had solved the material problems and could live comfortably.

We are beginning to understand that our nature, with which the mystery created us, does not require something added but an adequate response to our essence, as St. Augustine said.

This is not a psychological problem; it is a question of depth, of the mystery that constitutes us. As Leopardi said, feeling boredom, emptiness, and lack is not a problem; it is the greatest sign of man's greatness.

We are talking about another level, and if we don't get to that, we will not be able to accompany each other and create relationships and spaces where people can find themselves. This is a change of epoch.

Question - I was very impressed by your words because they completely turned the problem upside down. It's not that we live a normal life, with most of the problems solved, and then now and then tragedies happen. As the Russian writer Andrey Donatovich Sinyavsky said, "You live like a fool, but sometimes you come up with brilliant ideas." Here, it is the opposite: you show how this tragic dimension arises daily as a question we avoid facing.

Two questions come to mind. The first is: How can we help a person grow in daily life? What is the first thing to do when faced with someone uncertain or broken, like that boy who gave you his sculpture?

The second is about the final performance. The philosopher Ivan Illich wrote in "Disabling Professions" about a society that creates disabling professions. We live in a world of specialists, where if your child has a problem, there is the psychologist, the "licensed" professional. Turning on the television, we see experts on green, Eastern Europe, gender, etc. Even a priest can be seen as an expert in his subject.

So my question to the two of you is, in the face of this situation, is knowledge and doctrine enough, or is it necessary to take a leap of faith, to take a risk?

Claudio Burgio - eh, yes, yes, first of all, taking up what Don Julian says, at the end of the day, the kids of this generation have vital questions about the meaning of pain and death. When imprisoned, these questions resurface with all their ruthlessness: they are cruel and accurate and demand answers. For example, in the account of that boy from Paderno, one thing that surprised me was his mention of wanting to go and fight in Ukraine, of wanting to experience firsthand what pain is and what death is.

This suggests that we probably do not give space in our educational model for such reflections, or we delegate them to "professionals of distress." We entrust others to answer these questions, but we must go deeper with boys, children, and pupils. Today's predominant conception is that education is to provide tools to produce and get results, not to ask deep questions. Thus, the life of a "good" boy is measured by results, not by the depth of his questions.

The boys I meet, on the other hand, perhaps the most sensitive, are also the most suffering and have precisely these questions. Picking up on what I said: addressing certain topics, letting them express themselves freely, allows them to narrate, and their narrative is incredible. Even if they feel disappointed, they almost unknowingly recite the "Creed,"showing an inability to reframe what they express. Today, in the realm of information, there is no more storytelling and no more ability to read and interpret meanings. Adolescents, immersed in smartphones, mentally record information, true or false, but it does not educate meaning or significance.

Without an adult to help them narrate and discover together the meaning of what they are saying, it is clear that these teens feel increasingly lonely, alone with often false information, and therefore disoriented. One method I have used for many years is to let them say even impossible things to bring out their anger. I have also done this through music, such as rap or trap, which are "incorrect" but effective genres.

Quoting Marracash, one of his very good songs, *Doubts*, says, "I don't fear death, however, I fear not living." Here's the point: death is a possibility that we cannot ignore, as well as pain, aggression, anger, feelings of isolation, and frustration. Who helps them to look at these feelings? Who stands by them to teach them how to read pain? The problem is not so much doing an extreme act like killing or taking one's own life but the fear of not making sense of anything. It is the fear of isolation, of being alone in a world that demands only productivity and leaves no time to explore the darker parts of humanity.

How does one get out of it? I don't know. I try to draw on the Gospel to understand it. I think back to the descent to Emmaus: How does that stranger do it? He addresses specific topics by letting others speak and asking exploratory questions, allowing them to narrate. And this storytelling is incredible. We live in an age where information is ubiquitous, but the ability to narrate and interpret still needs to be improved.

I have also done this through music, for example, with genres like rap and trap, which are, shall we say, "incorrect" Like. To say "unlistenable" for our generation. No, but they should express themselves that way rather than demonize the genre and prevent kids from telling their stories. Once they have told their stories, we have time to reframe: ask, "Let me understand what you meant here" or "Do you really agree with this?" You have to dig into their stories and help them move from simply accumulating information to constructing a narrative that has meaning, as theater can do, that conveys further meaning. I wonder if I'm a little tired today and if I can explain myself, but it's important to me. The method is to help them narrate and search with them for the meaning of what they are saying because it is not so obvious to us or them.

Teenagers often recite narratives taken from others but without subjecting them to criticism. So, helping them develop critical thinking about what they narrate is very important because then they begin to scrutinize, bring out thoughts, reframe, and create a critique of what they narrate as well. That helps us as well. It is not just about "giving things," as if educating provides resources. The natural cure is giving the tools to seek and gain meaning through dialogue and interaction.

That is why spending a lot of time with children is necessary, knowing that sometimes it may seem like wasted time. But everything speaks, every gesture and code, both verbal and nonverbal, helps you understand what's inside that kid. You have to have time and patience because sometimes they tell things that make us say, "No, I don't believe it."

That stranger on the road to Emmaus could accept even what might have seemed unlistenable. And then, at one point, he woke them up by saying, "Fools and late of heart!" a call to wake up and reflect. Kids accept this when they have been heard and allowed to tell their stories. At that point, what you say, even discontinuously, surprises them and becomes fascinating because it concerns their lives and gives new meaning to what they say.

There, that is the beginning of education. Unfortunately, however, we are in too much of a hurry to say, "No, this is not good," or not listen to eliminate what we think is negative, like that music, for fear that it will ruin them.

No. That's what educational risk for me is: having the ability to say "yes" to risk, sometimes very high risk, but with the purpose of awakening consciousness. Without a conscience, you can have a child who goes along with you, whom you call good and who gives you satisfaction, but who, as happened to a boy in the community, after years of good school results and a year of college, commits two robberies. One wonders, "But he was a good boy, perfectly adequate!" Slowly, he was able to confide that to me. It means he was not given time or opportunity to express other questions or pains orrework his life story.

So, you have to be very patient and understand that their incorrect narrative, their wrong words, offer a huge educational possibility.

Julián Carrón - I agree. This is the big question: How do we educate? The child grows, and with growth emerge the depths of living, of adolescence, and all the mysteriousness of the person. What was previously clear becomes disturbing and is questioned because the horizon widens. The question is whether when this process manifests itself, there is someone who can understand it.

If a mother, when her daughter comes home from school and tells her, "Mom, when the teacher asked what would make us happy, everyone answered something, but I already have all those things -- and yet I'm sad," the mother's response is crucial. If she says, "My child, you will never be satisfied," she blocks that sadness instead of seeing it as an important signal. The great educational challenge lies precisely in this: welcoming that upset as a sign of greatness and not as a problem to be solved.

As Leopardi said, "Everything is too little for the capacity of the soul." The Gospel warns us, "What is the use of gaining the whole world if you lose yourself?" These words, while seeming spiritual, deeply touch people's flesh when they lack something. Even if we possess everything, we are surprised if something is wrong, as if something essential is still missing.

So what does it mean to educate? It means realizing that when this emerges, we should not block it, but help the children understand that this is their greatness, not just a psychological problem. The psychological problem is nothing compared to the depth of the mystery that is emerging in them. If we reduce everything to a psychological issue, we do not understand the true nature of the "self," the ultimate depth of the person. And if, as educators, we can enter into a relationship with this depth, then a true educational relationship is possible.

To educate is not to add more but to go along with what constantly emerges instead of repressing it. Recognizing it and understanding that this is the nature of being human will enable children to accept that having it all is not enough. As I told my students before the vacations, "What would you say about someone who tried to cure a tumor with Advil? He is off the mark because he has not understood the nature of the problem." Leopardi said that "everything is little to the capacity of the soul."

During the summer, you will have everything, but there will be times when you will find that everything is not enough. I want you to understand that this is not a lack but a greatness. If you do not understand this, you may think that you are misguided, and your mother, others, and finally yourself will confirm this idea, only creating confusion. If we do not understand ourselves, we cannot understand even the sadness of our children.

This is, for me, the great task: not to substitute ourselves for them, but not to reduce what emerges in them like a plant trying to come out into the light, putting a burden on it. Accompanying them means taking the necessary risk so that they find the answers for themselves. Only then will they have the ability to understand what really meets their needs; it is not just a psychological problem; it is their greatness.

Suppose they do not learn to judge for themselves. In that case, they will be at the mercy of anyone who crosses their path, and no police officer will ever be able to stop them from making mistakes because the problem is not solved by outside intervention. They must understand within themselves because one cannot predict when the crisis will "explode."

We are facing a momentous issue: these cases are signals for the boys and all of us. They ask us what is necessary to live, what is needed by boys, who, loyal to their own humanity, sometimes explode. But what are they telling us? What is the deep nature of the self, of the person?

If we follow the order without taking risks, we will not be part of the solution but the problem. As Christians, we have had the opportunity to rediscover who we are because of an encounter. If, on the other hand, we avoid risk because we consider it dangerous, then we do not contribute to humanity's growth but hinder its true nature.

(***) The authors have not yet revised the texts and translations.

The following text is an excerpt from the meeting "Three Doors on the Night," held on November 6, November 6, in Milan, Italy, at Teatro Oscar, with three special guests: Friday. Julián Carrón (theologian and biblical scholar), Fr. Claudio Burgio (spiritual assistant of Inst. Beccaria and founder of the Kayros community), and Alessandro Gnocchi, editor-in-chief of "Il Giornale."

Through a reworked format of questions and answers (unrevised by the authors), it explores the theme of Evil and violent acts performed by "normal" people without obvious disorders. It questions the absence of answers from theology, science, and philosophy and the need to reformulate questions to understand these phenomena better.

Three Doors on the Night is the title of the unique project that the Oscar Theatre in Italy in Milan offers to the city on Halloween. Each year, it addresses a small slice of the great enigma of Evil.
English. Spanish. French.